Gamers on Games: Episode 58.5: Female Wargamers Follow-Up with KaosKass

By Polar_Bear
In News
Sep 25th, 2013

Gamers on Games has posted vidcast episode 58.5 up online for your viewing pleasure.
And just to go on the record: I personally feel everyone should be able to enjoy gaming (in all its facets) as a hobby and not have to deal with discrimination. The hobby is about being social and inclusive, bringing everyone together over a good game. We’re one, big, geeky family.


In this episode:

KaosKass replies to our Female Wargamers episode
This is a reply to 58.5 Female Wargamers.

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  • Soulfinger

    Well, I managed to watch about five minutes of that before falling asleep. Here is my video response: LINK.

  • tuco

    Well, you made it a good deal farther than me. I was only able to put up with about two minutes of her being all over the place. Also, someone needs to tell these people to collect their thoughts, or even have an outline. These two videos (this one and the one it references) use “um” and “uh” so much.

    Furthermore, I’m not sure how two rambling YouTube videos about how it’s not fair that half-(or more) naked chicks get more attention than some girl playing Warhammer makes the cut as “news.” Wait, this just in: the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.

    Guess what ladies, if the guys playing Warhammer showed up looking like Charlie Hunam with 2% body fat wearing no shirt, women would be all over this hobby. Instead we have guys who wish they looked as good as the guy who runs the comic shop on Simpsons with the hygiene of a wild baboon. Them’s just the cold, hard facts. The world’s not always a pretty place, especially the areas of the world that are located in the back rooms of gaming stores where the air smells like a plate of old taco meat won an arm wrestling contest with a can of Axe.

    • Soulfinger

      So, I’m . . . . uh, writing this, I guess, in response to a letter I just received . . . and it was . . . uh, a guy who . . . uh . . . was asking hand gestures . . . um . . . more addressing the question of . . . um . . . well, how . . . shrugging shoulders and staring at cake off-screen why male football players receive more attention than the wargamers, like the guys who um. Well . . . um . . . when he goes to play games, he um . . . looks at cake gets picked on for . . . um damn that cake looks tasty . . . like um the wargaming community. I personally hand gestures don’t play the wargames yet, so I don’t . . . uh . . . have that experience yet . . . of playing the wargames, so my experience um . . . being that it is my personal experience of being solely a gamer balls deep in this . . . um . . . wargaming that I don’t play for . . . um like my entire life dude, someone ate some of the off-screen cake . . . so um . . . my advice is like because see people see they like shouldn’t have a problem with . . . um . . . you liking to play a game that you play and uhhh . . . liking it. Mr. Burns templed fingers directed at chest Aggle flaggle klabble. Duh . . .

  • cegorach

    Well, I wonder what the problem is? Looks up page


    That would be it.

    Good luck changing that, girls.

  • julesav

    Well, I think the preceding comments do a pretty good job of showing the negative attitudes these girls mention coming across in the hobby!

    Realistically online gamers have an advantage in that concealing your identity is much easier to avoid this sort of thing. I suppose you have to decide whether the level of unpleasantness you come across makes the hobby un-followable for you? Or you look for a friendlier gaming group? One of my (male) gaming pals who enjoys playing at competitions/tournaments says that they are more friendly, and more fun, if you lose your first game! However that’s not much help if you’re good enough to be a serious contender for a place!

    Any thinking male gamer should see that the hobby would be more fun for everyone if it was open to females – whether they are partners, daughters or even just other gamers. So I guess that this this very much leaves the response being that thinking, caring gamers (of any gender) should challenge any discriminatory behaviour they see – whether it be based on race, sexuality or sex!

    Alternatively I suppose that GW could start a female players only competition or league – I mean most pro-sports are sex segregated – like say Wimbledon for tennis or male and female soccer leagues etc. Personally I can’t see much point in this as sports rely on relative physical strengths, whereas gaming is theoretically down to your brain and the luck of the dice!

    • Soulfinger

      You do? Really? Well then, hail to thee, Sir White Knight of teh Interwebz!

      You see, I think those comments reflect the awfulness of such a rambling podcast, which would have been equally bad dictated by man, woman, or wookie (slightly better by wookie). What you have is an unqualified narrator (not because she is a woman, but because she flat out says that she doesn’t play wargames) answering a question with a faulty and anecdotal premise (‘why do cosplayers get more attention than wargamers’ having no correlation to someone getting picked on by other wargamers) in the most roundabout, incoherent way possible.

      Personally, I have not witnessed any level of discrimination toward female gamers within the hobby exempting that which stems from the extreme social ineptness and retarded sexuality of that iconic segment of male gamers described by tuco. That is to say, dorks acting weird because they are unable to relate to the opposite gender at an age appropriate level. I’ve seen gamers being jerks to other gamers, particularly those who are inexperienced or new to the hobby, but I would not consider that gender-biased. For all we know, the person with the initial question is truly dreadful at wargaming and is getting flak based on that, rather than her gender, without understanding that competitive tournament wargaming is like a clarion call to some of the biggest asshats in our hobby.

      I have in the past run game sessions with as many as one-hundred players, some with near parity between genders. I take discrimination very seriously, but I can’t think of a single instance of a player being marginalized for their sex or sexual preference (several players were gay). What I have seen is gamers struggling to account for gender preferences when tailoring material for a mixed audience. Oftentimes the plot lines generated for male audiences will fail to engage female players, and I’ve been happy to see a trend in board games and other hobby products that accounts for female psychology in product design — for example, more cooperative experiences, like Pandemic, rather than competitive ones.

      On a side note, julesav, I like how you rail against discrimination and then suggest segregation as a solution. Stay classy!

      • As a gamer who happens to be female: I agree with Soul.

      • cegorach

        Is that a condition you suffer from that makes you so unpleasant or do you just spend too much time on Reddit?

        Here’s a suggestion – rather than trying to be a smartass and coming across as a supremely nasty person, how about using that FORMIDABLE intellect to try and make the situation better?

        Being a twat to a young woman who is self-admittedly inexperienced in the hobby but wanted to offer support to someone else who was upset, at best makes you a spiteful person with too much time on their hands.

        You’ve obviously got the time to post diatribes and think of yourself as rather intelligent, how about next time you try and make the WHOLE thing constructive?

        Let’s start with a clear summation of evidence-backed assertions, not personal anecdotes:

        The hobby is male dominated and women are objects of rarity to many within
        The hobby has a greater concentration of socially-inept people than the general population
        The competitive side of the hobby often brings out negative social traits
        The hobby gears its products and services towards traditionally male-only interests and psychology

        Now rather than slagging off a teenage girl whose only real crime was offering a very personal message of support, maybe just focus your responses on the actual issues our hobby faces?

        Also, given how quickly you rushed to use the term ‘White Knight’ – you may not actually BE a misogynistic Men’s Rights Activist but it sure makes you LOOK like one.

        • Soulfinger

          Were you responding to me or On the Lamb? Because I’d be quite offended in the latter case. She is an extraordinarily nice person.

          No, no, by white knight I was going with the gamer definition of “a male gamer who, in a desperate attempt to get himself laid, will attempt to woo or impress any female gamer he comes across online by being overly defensive of her and giving her special attention” To be clear, my belief is that you are so passionate about this is because you think that girl will see your posts in defense of her honor and shower you with smooches. I may be wrong, but I’m not the one calling someone a “tw*t” (way to go using language that is offensive to women in a failed attempt to insult me). I’m willing to bet that if I had made the same derisive remarks about that exact same video but with Uwe Boll delivering the lines, you would have agreed with me wholeheartedly, because you could have separated the merits of the production from your raging hormones.

          In fact, yes, I do suffer from a condition that makes me so unpleasant. It is a daily struggle. As to being spiteful with too much time on my hands . . . check and double check there as well. That aside, what’s your point? You want me to fix the Internet, the gaming community, and that poor young girl’s lousy podcast using the power of forum posting? I’ll get right on that. You can be in charge of alerting the media and the President about how we’ll be setting all of society’s woes straight right here and now in this, the venue most suited for thoughtful discussion and life changing affirmation. While I’m at it, I’ll get GW to lower their prices and PP to stop using that crappy plastic and reduce the size of their pauldrons. Glad we both know how the Internet works. All in favor, say “Aye!”

          By the way, “evidence-backed” means you can cite a source, otherwise it is anecdotal, but you can go ahead and cite me since you were apparently just reiterating what I’d said.

          • tuco

            I don’t want to sound cold-hearted or like a Meany McMeanington, but would you mind, Soulfinger, actually re-arranging the order there to: PP’s plastics, GW price drop, then all that other stuff?

          • cegorach

            It was directed at you, so please don’t get offended on someone elses’ behalf 😉

            So it IS a condition? You should have just kicked off with that. I think they are working on a cream that should fix it up for you.

            In terms of your criticism, you seem to have blissfully missed the point I was making that the content is more important than the production.

            If this was a Youtube criticism site, your whining about the delivery may have some relevance. Given that it’s not, the fact you decided to nerd rage at the video format as your primary issue is decidedly odd. Let’s put that down to your condition.

            However, as someone happily married for fifteen years, your projection is quite amusing.

            I’ll assume you’re a teenage boy, since a grown man hissing at a young girl’s video would be at best pathetic and at worst, painfully creepy.

            Assuming that, please realise many of us can interact with women without hoping to ‘woo or impress’. It may blow your mind that some of us would like more women in the hobby for their own sake, not because we want to ‘desperately get laid’.

            I know you probably don’t understand that but as you get older, you may see women in a different way.

            And that’s why it’s a pain in the ass that every time the issue of gender disparity in wargaming comes up, the majority of the conversation is pasty white males whining and moaning and doing everything EXCEPT try and make the situation better.

            So while you may want your hobby to be full of nothing but dudes – and I’m not judging you for that, each to their own – I’d prefer to see more women and get annoyed when people do their darnedest to derail the conversation when they can.

          • Veritas

            If this was a Youtube criticism site,
            your whining about the delivery may
            have some relevance. Given that it’s
            not, the fact you decided to nerd rage
            at the video format as your primary
            issue is decidedly odd. Let’s put that
            down to your condition.

            I’m with Soulfinger on this one. If you can’t make a coherent point then yes, you are actually doing your cause more harm than good. In that case someone taking you to task for not taking the time to put together your thoughts before making a video is entirely topical.

        • tuco

          How does it work to accuse someone else of being misogynistic then using the term “tw*t” yourself? I’d honestly like to know.

          • cegorach

            In the same way that referring to you as a cretin does not indicate that you are someone whose growth was stunted by congenital hypothyroidism.

          • tuco

            Cretin? Well, I guess since we’re on the internet you can’t exactly slap me in the face with a glove to defend the lady’s honor.

          • Soulfinger

            I should be slapping myself in the face for not catching on right off with that fabulous “[email protected]” Easter egg. There are some excellent reversals of positions and misdirection to render the argument wholly meaningless, the capable use of argumentum ad hominem, and the numerous argumentative fallacies. Nice job. I couldn’t have done better myself, although it got sloppy at the end there with the “I’m not a teenager, you’re the teenager” bit. That’s pretty much a trolling trope these days. Thanks for the fun exchange.

  • This goes nicely with my popcorn. TGN would translate perfectly to a reality show – I mean the script is already done. This one I’d watch though. It would be awesome if Soulfinger was portrayed as a man that cosplayed as the old geezer muppet on a floating balcony. 24/7. He’d be one of the main characters and we’d get to follow him around when he goes shopping for groceries and stuff in character. He’d also insist on using some special equipment to bolt himself/the balcony on the wall above everybody in movie theaters and other venues of entertainment… perhaps even in local forms of transportation. That would be awesome. I have to go animate this now. It might take a while. Soul – will you do your own voice?