Wrath of Kings demo interviews at Gencon 2013

Wrath of Kings made a big splash at GenCon Indy this past weekend. People were lined up to get a demo with Leif, one of the developers for the game. Check out the video that was put together from “exit interviews” from the demos.

From the update:

We did a couple of interviews at Gencon for people who ran through the demos with us, to give their first impressions of the gameplay and the models.

If you were at the show and had a chance to demo, please chime in too!

  • joshuar56

    I tried it out, game play was much too simple for my taste. Maybe there will be more in the real rules. I”m not a big fan of games that use a single D10 either though.

  • joshuar56

    Watching that GenCon video I have to laugh though, when the guy says “the minis are so unique”. I think to myself “I do not think that word means what you think it means”. I mean, lets see, has there ever been a skirmish minis game that used giant werewolves with long blades attached to their wrists? What about humans with really long pointy things on their helmets/shoulders? Anyone who played Confrontation can see the obvious similarities.

    • BDub

      It more than obvious, it intentional- with regards to design and the art direction, WoKs IS the spiritual successor of Confrontation.

      • joshuar56

        Absolutely, I mean Raphael and some of the other confrontation people are directly behind it. It’s actually the reason I’m interested in it.

  • 4tonmantis

    The CMON crew seems to be pretty dense. The level of detail was never really in question.. People have valid concerns about how the plastic will be when putting the models together in terms of it’s ability to hold the details during the process of cleaning off seam lines. Handing someone a cleaned and assembled model is hardly a good way of proving any kind of point.

    • Veritas

      I don’t think it has anything to do with them being dense. They’re just trying to admit no negatives while simultaneously blasting positive spin everywhere they can in hope of drowning out the naysayers. Essentially, they’re taking a page from GW’s play book of ignoring the concerns of their customer base. This is what makes me respect companies like Prodos all the more. For the Warzone reboot they already had all their plastic production lined up, found out they couldn’t get the quality they wanted, then pulled the plug on plastics and went 100% resin.

      • BDub

        The pitch is a little too strong, though. and I wish that guy would take the damn mic out of his mouth when he talks.

  • mathieu

    These interviews are so phony they are painful to watch. Why would you feed the interviewees the answers you want if the game and the models were so obviously good?

  • Gallahad

    I don’t know, I read it more along the lines of trying to be responsive to customer concerns while being at a very busy convention. I don’t think it is unreasonable for them to focus on the positives of the material. After all, you never really expect a Ford salesman to tell you all of the negatives of buying a Ford (for example).

    Ideally they would put up another couple videos of somebody cleaning the models with close up shots of before and after cleaning to show that the plastic is workable.

    • TheDude

      They already did in the painting video, but apparently it was too “staged”. Basically what Mathieu and joshuar56 are saying is that any information released first party is suspect, and only independent reviews matter. Which can be said about any company’s informational releases really. It’s one thing to say “I don’t believe you, I’ll see for myself” (fair enough, very few people like preordering months in advance) but it’s another to constantly repeat derision on ever post, or to insult the intelligence of the interviewees which I believe at one point had someone from BoLs. It’s basically a bunch of self important critics posting negative spin on almost every single news posts from whatever company and I’m surprised TGN allows this.

      • I have no idea of how many kickstarters you have taken part of nor what kind of experience you have working with that plastic. If you like many of us here have participated in a lot of kickstarters that contained a lot of figures made in this material that was PROMISED to be awesome in every aspect – and when you started getting them you realised it was all but awesome in any aspect other than details, you’d be suspiscious when the next kickstarter is promising their formula/blend holds the characteristics of something between metal and styrene plastic.

        All we want to know is if this is an actual improvement in the blend from what we are used to. I am waiting on kickstarters to be delivered that I would never had put money into had I known the characteristics of the material beforehand. That’s me being cheated.

        The material holds promise, but in that case I want to see that realised and yes – frankly I don’t trust that video. It said you can file it, when the material I know of can’t be filed – so I want to see it being filed. I want to see the results. I SOOOO WANT TO BUY INTO THIS, but I simply don’t have a use for another 200 models that are a chore I will never get to if it’s the way I think it is now.

        I WANT TO BE CONVINCED this is worth it. That is all.

        This KS just happened to come in at a time when most people have had some experience with the awful pvc blend and thus has to face the brunt of that hmm… disappointment. Unfair? From the perspective of CMoN, perhaps, but from the perspective of the consumer it’s unfair that this plastic has been sold and used without any explanation of it’s subpar workability. It’s been brushed off like the concerns raised are by “SELF IMPORTANT CRITICS” as you put it. You are welcome to your opinion, but diminishing the concerns of others that have spent good money on a small mountain of a subpar product is quite arrogant.

        I don’t think the interwiews were staged, but the end result is the same. The questions asked where basically “HOW AWESOME IS THE QUALITY DO YOU THINK?” Leading or what? That did not give me any information that I didn’t already know. I know it holds great detail. That has never been in question. I already know the sculpts are really nice (even though that is highly subjective) or I wouldn’t be fussing so much over this. I want the models, I just want to be reassured that the material holds better properties than what we have experienced so far.

        Is that too much to ask? I don’t think so.

        • joshuar56

          I’m not sure where the “haracteristics of something between metal and styrene plastic” thing came from, but it’s a complete load. The stuff the majority of the minis are made of is the same softish stuff that PP uses. There is a reason they are using styrene for the weapons, and that’s cause the vinyl that the rest of the models are made from isn’t as good. Which isn’t an automatic nonsale for me, but CMoN should stop trying to spin it and just be honest.

          • TheDude

            This was posted by Legoburner (admin of dakkadakka.com) a few days ago on their forum: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/546163.page

            I was given time to handle the
            production models, both painted and
            raw up close today so that I can be
            capable of answering any questions
            people might have about the production

            In summary, it is still the softer
            plastic material that we usually see
            from CMON, and has about 85% the
            sharpness of resin and 95% the
            sharpness of metal in my opinion.
            Fortunately, the models are almost
            entirely suited to that, with lots of
            organic shapes and very few sharp
            edges needed on the models, with the
            few sharp edges that are there wisely
            using real hard plastic, so swords and
            weapons are not going to bend at all
            and the fixing points are good and
            stable. Some go as far as having
            plastic hands and wrist armour where
            the sharper detail is needed and it
            blends together pretty well.

            There were a few mould lines and join
            lines that would be a pain to clean
            up, but certainly do-able. I was
            assured that I was not looking at the
            final models as these were just early
            prototypes and the tools had not been
            completely polished yet so a lot of
            the things I pointed out were known to
            them and in the process of being fixed

            Overall the models are decent. They
            will take more cleaning than plastic
            and have less detail than resin, but
            well within the realm of tolerance for
            decent models. Many things have subtle
            undercuts to allow for easier painting
            and increased perception of depth
            which adds a unique feel to them
            compared to pure plastic or
            resin/metal which I think will be well

          • joshuar56

            Which is totally fine, but if you speak to someone from CMoN you’d get the impression that they have reinvented the wheel. I think most people just want them to be honest so they can make an informed decision on whether to buy or not. There’s no right or wrong answer, just an honest one.

          • TheDude

            Well sure, because that’s what every company does right? “Coke is it!* but is a little too sweet for some of you, and it’ll make you at and give you heart disease.”

          • joshuar56

            Does Coke try and kickstart their next flavor? Do they ask backers to “trust” them? No? Then it’s not really comparable is it?

          • TheDude

            Of course it’s comparable – you are asking a company to emphasize the negative aspects of its products (which, and this is besides the point, in all honesty it appears that people who’ve handled the models are ok with, even yourself since you deemed them “precleaned”). No company in the world does that because there are enough critics to do it for them!

            You are turning an honest marketing statement – “This is PVC and polystyrene, we think it’s a great balance for the price point, detail, ease of use etc”, and intentionally interpreting it at worst as dishonest, and at best as misleading. You either have a very high opinion of CMON, or a very low one, and I can’t figure out which.

          • mathieu

            Nobody is asking CMoN to emphasize the negative aspect of their product, just to not bring up positive aspects it doesn’t have.

          • TheDude

            What positive aspect are they bringing up that it doesn’t have that they are pitching?
            1. It takes 5 minutes to clean a particular Big Sister model (i.e. it is what it is), and not much more involved for other models.
            2. It holds details very well – with undercuts as mentioned by Legoburner, impossible in polystyrene.
            3. It is inexpensive.
            4. It is light.
            5. Straight edges are in polystyrene so they don’t bend.

            I don’t believe I’ve seen anything from them saying it’s better than polystyrene or resin. Did they?

          • joshuar56

            How about the fact that you can sand/file it? When no one I was looking I took my thumbnail to one of the minis lightly just to see how it felt. I just don’t buy that these minis can be filed/sanded any more than PP’s.

          • TheDude

            Which statement from CMON said that the models should be sanded or filed? I haven’t seen it myself.

          • He says it in the video.

          • joshuar56

            Really? Did you even watch the video? I’m not sure you should continue in this conversation. I know after this reply I will be ignoring any more input you provide…

          • TheDude

            The painting and prep video doesn’t mention filing at all – looks like the presenter got over-excited on this one.

          • Ghool

            Yes, the painting prep video indeed does mention filing or scraping the mold lines off. Both of these statements are entirely false.

            Are you sure you watched the correct video?

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7KYrL4BzEeg#t=110

            01.51 “…or your file or whatever you prefer”

          • joshuar56

            Quick TheDude… change the subject!

        • Ghool

          I’ve spent enough on PP models to know that I absolutely HATE working with this PVC plastic.
          No amount of testimony about how well it holds detail is going to sell me on it.

          I don’t buy any of the PP models if they are made of that cheap, sub-par plastic that every company seems to keep adopting, and trying to sell it as a ‘quality’ material. You can’t file it, you can’t scrape it, you can’t sand it. The only thing you can do to remove the mold lines is actually CUT THEM OFF. And that runs the risk of destroying the detail. The mold lines on this kind of plastic is horrid and some come out of what appears to be 10 part molds.

          I agree 100% with basement.dweller.

          Like he has said; show me this plastic being filed, show a production copy so I can see where the mold lines are and what details they run across.

        • TheDude

          It’s not too much to ask, but that’s not what the comments here are asking. CMON has already posted a video showing a production model being cleaned, prepped and painted from start to finish. But this is either being dismissed as too much work (which is a valid opinion, even if I don’t agree with it, 5 min a model for a 30 model army isn’t terrible) or not a true representation of the work involved in cleanup since they have been “precleaned” – i.e. it’s a trust issue, which is also ok – see my previous comment.

          What is being asked for is for PRODUCTION UNITS to be put in YOUR HANDS (not you specifically, see the comments on the other Wrath announcements) or as good as, i.e. either in my hands or in the hands of someone I can trust to be impartial, which obviously isn’t going to happen for something that is in pre-production. So the sensible option here is to wait and see, which is also I think fair comment (if I can’t see the real thing, I don’t wanna pay for it.)

          In addition, what Mathieu and joshuar56 have been saying is that the models couldn’t possibly be any good because they are made from PVC, and they don’t like PVC. I don’t buy pewter models any more because I don’t like how they chip paint. But c’mon, to both these guys the prep is the most important factor – above and beyond sculpts, detail, quality of casting and pricing.

          I have never met a miniature lover that lists “ease of prep” as #1 purchasing decision choice. If so, you’d think their cases would be full of Finecast and Wargames Factory. The entire attitude has been unrealistic, snarky and condescending for frankly a great offering, which I did have the chance to personally see at Gencon. I personally think the price point and scale of game is a good way to not rip-off the masses of gamers this seems to be aimed at.

          • joshuar56

            At what point did I say the models aren’t any good? At what point did I say I don’t like PVC? The only thing I mentioned is what the miniatures are actually made of, whether you like it or not is up to each buyer. So please, stop putting words in my mouth. I’m actually backing the project. I will admit I’m not a huge fan of polyvinyl, but it’s not a deal breaker for me like others. But for the people who do find it a deal breaker, they should know what to expect.

          • mathieu

            In addition, what Mathieu and joshuar56 have been saying is that the models couldn’t possibly be any good because they are made from PVC, and they don’t like PVC. I don’t buy pewter models any more because I don’t like how they chip paint. But c’mon, to both these guys the prep is the most important factor – above and beyond sculpts, detail, quality of casting and pricing.

            Once again, you are either misunderstanding or distorting my words. I do not like PVC because of the end result we have systematically gotten so far. That is to say pieces that take a lot longer to clean up than metal, resin, or polystyrene. And I’m not talking a couple of minutes longer, last week I spent well over half an hour to clean the pieces of a light warjack for a friend, and I wasn’t even close to having gone through all of them. Because the material is difficult to clean and because the lines seem to consistently run across its most finely detailed areas… However I did not say the models couldn’t possibly be good. I’m saying that based on what CMoN has told us about them, they too will have more mold lines than “minimal, and will be a pain to clean.

            I never stated that prep was the most important factor either, far from it. The fact of the matter is you can, and do, get similarly high, or even higher levels of details with PS, pewter, and resin. With fewer, thinner mold lines that are a lot easier and faster to clean. I for one like to be very thorough when I clean my miniatures, and when you end up spending that much time on a single, relatively small model, you start wondering whether it was worth saving a couple of bucks (if that). When you’re done working on a full unit, you already know it wasn’t worth the savings…

            I did propose, however, that CMoN sends people production models. Which might indeed be tricky for CMoN, but far from unfeasible since they keep waving miniatures and claiming they are as good as production models. Like I also mentioned, Mantic did that with their ghouls years ago and got rave reviews for models that were, indeed, excellent. If the material is as good as CMoN claims, the positive feedback will quench the criticisms. If it is not the fantastic material that they claimed, then they can just come out and say it — people who care about that sort of things will move on, people who don’t will stick around. Easy as that. The only reason this has been an issue to begin with is CMoN dubious claim that the material is much better than all the evidence they’ve provided us suggest!

          • TheDude

            For someone more interested in display models rather than gaming you obviously want resin quality regardless of price, within reason – because I haven’t seen a single polystyrene fig (even from GW) that comes close to having the level of detail of a resin figure – they’re just really clever about undercut elimination (e.g. Space Marine head ears are mostly terrible blobs). So obviously the project isn’t for you.

            But then you contradict yourself and say, well the PP stuff is ok except they made bad choices in terms of mold line placement – which would be a) PP’s problem, and b) mold lines over detail is bad regardless of material, even if it’s harder in PVC (and even harder in metal) to fix – again PP’s problem.

            CMON hasn’t said that cleanup can be achieved by filing as far as I can find, you can see in the video that their painter scrapes the mold lines off. Who’s talking about filing? Is your standard of miniature prep must be able to be filed a high priority above all others?

            Also, for independent review – How would that work? Wouldn’t you just poo-poo any positive review by saying the models sent to the reputable reviewer were cherry picked, just like you did with all the positive 3rd party feedback over Gencon? Aren’t you just as guilty of cherry picking negative feedback, which as per joshuar56’s statement, seems to consist of just “nah, I don’t believe they’ll be this good even though I have them in my f*cking hands?”

          • mathieu

            I won’t go over your claim that I contradict myself since I don’t think your argument is really that compelling (nor understandable really), let me just assure you that I am not.

            Since you do not seem to be familiar with this plastic at all, FYI mold lines over details are more difficult to clean in PVC than in ANY over material. Unlike what you claim, cleaning mold lines over metal is a breeze compared to PVC. It’s never pleasant, you got that one thing right, but it’s not nearly as bad as the nerve-wracking experience it is with PVC.

            Now why would I spit on independent reviews? Because I question the impartiality of folks at a con who had a friendly demo with a dude who’s now asking them leading questions? Questions on “issues” that nobody else is bringing up (here or anywhere), nor really cares about for that matters since we KNOW this plastic can reproduce details pretty decently? Do you at least realize that having a model on your bench at home is a completely different experience than getting to hold it for a couple of minutes in front of a camera at a Con?

            Finally, I’d appreciate if you could drop the expletives. I have to be honest, I don’t think it adds any accuracy to the statements you keep distorting.

          • @mathieu I am glad you did that last post, I thought it was getting rather unpleasant for a while – I mean if you really want to get a point across why would you antagonise and belittle everybody, make personal “remarks” and misquote people. There is no need for such.

          • Veritas

            Hey, watch the painting video again there, chief. At the 1 minute 50~ second mark the guy doing the clean up says cleaning can be achieved with a file. There you go, a representative of CMoN has said files can be used. Hence, we are all interested in seeing one of these models cleaned with a file since it seems a lot of us have also had the unpleasant experience of attempting to use files on this polyvinyl stuff in the past.

      • mathieu

        Basically what Mathieu and joshuar56 are saying is that any information released first party is suspect, and only independent reviews matter.

        Mmm not really, although I can see how a superficial reading would lead to that understanding. What I — and a lot of other people — am saying is that the issue that has been raised over and over (again by many more than just myself) has nothing to do with the quality of the sculpts, nor the ability to reproduce details of the plastic they chose. We know how good the material can be, other companies have used it for years with decent to great success.

        Yet CMoN keeps “easing the customer concerns” by bringing these points up instead of addressing the real issue of the quality of the final product and how painful it is to work on. Issue on which they have been incredibly quiet beyond the claims that the mold lines are minimal and easy to file, which we all know for a fact to be grossly untrue based on their admitting it is the same material as what PP uses, and our experience of PP models. I wouldn’t find it unreasonable to focus on the positive of the material either, but what they are doing is focus on the obvious, and are either silent or confusing about the potential negative we fear.

        What do we see in these videos? The same two handpicked and prepped “test production” models passed from one Con-goer to the next. Is that useful in showing anything about how good and clean the actual production models will be? Out of the box? Not really. Does that give us any information on how pleasant to prep they will be? Definitely not. Can CMoN do better? I believe so. Frankly I wouldn’t bother if I didn’t think there was a huge potential and didn’t have an interest in this game…

        Great, insightful posts by basement.dweller and Ghool.

        • Ghool

          I’d like to see the model in pieces.
          I’d like to see some close ups of what the casting is like.
          I’d like some close ups of the mold lines, and where they are placed.

          The fact of the matter is, CMoN has already produced plenty of miniatures from this material, and I’ve seen them first hand.

          If the WoK models are anything close to the Sedition Wars models, I’ll never be sold on the game.

          Personally, I really like the models, and all of the factions have some great stuff that would be fun to paint. But, again it comes back to the material they’re cast from, and that’s going to be a hard sell for some of us. I want to put my money back into this Kickstarter, but I want to see more of the actual models.

          Like I stated above; show me parts, and show me mold lines.
          Then at least I can make an educated decision on whether or not I want to back this project. And that’s all we’ve been asking for; more information. Having customers educated in your product line is going to do nothign but good for you.

          The fact is, the CMoN hype for Kickstarter projects is waning after Sedition Wars, and the extremely late Relic Knights.

          Backers want more information on the products they’re putting their hard-earned cash behind, and I really don’t think it’s asking too much when a bunch of potential backers are just asking for more information. So, we’re not buying the hype. Is that really such a terrible thing?

  • MelvinFenwick

    Like watching a 7 minute advertisement with no meat.

    Yes, I get it that people think it played nice. Yeah I get it that you had to point out the level of detail in each mini. How about getting to the nitty gritty? I clicked thinking it was an actual demo, not listening to 5 minutes of people who just DID the demo.

    • MelvinFenwick

      And before anyone says anything, yes, I can see the title of the vid.

      Interviews are great, but 7 minutes of them? Again, show me some REAL info to get me jazzed about the game. A couple of tid-bits here and there from each interview, but damn you figured you could edit that a bit better.

  • joshuar56

    Does anyone know if polyvinyl molds are cheaper to make or just the materiel itself is cheaper?

    • 4tonmantis

      Presumably both.

    • As the material has properties that allows it to be stretched about 200% without breaking (it depends on the type of PVC and blend I suppose) I imagine you need not make that much of a fuss with undercuts leading to less space needed per figure in a mold (since they have less pieces/figure) etc so the mold making is less complex and thus significantly cheaper. After some research I have come to the conclusion that it is spincast. The PP plastic is spincast and is a PVC blend. Spincasting is waaaaaaaaay cheaper than injection molding.

      The stretch/softness properties are also what makes it a bitch to clean up. It’s basically one step up from rubber. Heating it makes it soft and though I don’t have any real knowledge on the moldmaking of PVC miniatures I am certain the models are removed while warm so they’ll pop out and that leads to the warpage in some of them. Polysterene does not have that “soft” property and can not be manufactured with undercuts (think rigid icecube trays). Some awesome kits utilise multipart molds that have moving parts that allow for undercuts, but the cost of such molds is huge. Based on some gung-ho estimations on an online calculator – the tooling cost for a small injection mold for ABS or PS is about $20.000 so I doubt the cost for PVC molds even comes close. I am making some educated guesses, but information on numbers is scarse and I’d love some input from someone that is in the know.