Defiance Games Rebuttal

By Polar_Bear
In News
Jan 23rd, 2014

Defiance Games has posted an open letter rebuttal to the announcement made earlier by Torn Armor. See that post here.


From the letter:

An open letter to Alyssa Faden of Torn Armor.


Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.

Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.

This is your project — the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.

After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the ‘changing of the guard’ or the ‘turbulent times’ changes that.

You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.

I am really disappointed in you.

John Morse

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  • Ghool


    Take a business agreement made between companies and make it personal.
    Keep diggin’ that hole Defiance.

  • Haibane

    Pass the popcorn! 😀

  • Well if the project is closed they shouldn’t have any problem refunding her money then?

    • n815e

      They’ve already spend her money, most likely to pay off the other companies they owed because they were going to get sued. They’ve also probably already spent the KS funds from their own “project”.

    • Grim6

      I think it’s because they’re using the Torn Armor money to produce their Hard Suit KS…

  • hithero

    Could always give her her money back 😕

  • They were paid for a work
    Files were not workable
    They did not work a lot

  • julesav

    Who profits here? Just follow the money!

  • hithero
  • blkdymnd

    Yep, where’s the refund minus any services actually already performed? Not the greatest PR move I’ve ever seen

  • Disgruntled Goat

    Okay, Defiance, now explain why you boned Ken at Proxie Models and still haven’t paid him for the product?

  • scottjm

    So Defiance talk all the money that was fronted to them, to find out the files may have been garbage? When I work with CAD files (not 3D CAD mind you) I know within a matter of seconds whether they’re garbage. Perchance did Defiance take the money and use it for their own ends?

    • 4tonmantis

      Even if the files didn’t work.. it takes like 5 seconds in most major 3d apps to switch format.. Granted, STL requires an airtight mesh.. but any modeler worth their salt can manage that. To me the bigger problem with this is.. whoever Torn contracted for the 3d models may not have known what they were doing.. (speculation) but.. when Defiance gets the files, the end result between the two parties is that it’s just not worth it?

      It sounds a little to me like maybe Alyssa could be using Defiance’s bad reputation to write the project off and pocket the rest without having to follow up on a snag. That isn’t to say Defiance hasn’t done anything wrong.. but to just say “okay.. sorry everyone” and expect to not show people anything in the way of models? That sounds extremely fishy.. especially when they’re not divulging how much of the KS funding actually went to DG and how much she kept.. Reaper offered to help too.. but she seems to want to pass on that.. despite their reliability, reputation, and general awesomeness..

      • 4tonmantis

        Just to reiterate.. I do believe that DG is in the wrong.. but I am trying to point out that there is the possibility for more than that in this instance. IE, they’re wrong but they are also being used as a smoke screen..

      • joshuar56

        The problem with your “pocket the rest” theory is that it won’t work. They’ll have to refund what ever is left, or use it to produce part of the game. It makes 0 sense business wise, and reputation wise to try and sabotage your own projects in the hopes that you can make off with a couple of thousand dollars. Especially when you can’t get away with said thousands.

  • Chameleon

    One usually has to deal with the financial services industry to find this level of obfuscation, incompetence, and malfeasance. Special thanks to Tony Reidy and sockpuppet John Morse for bringing a new level of douchebaggery to the gaming community.

  • Carcharodontist

    I feel like a total moron for backing the Defiance hardsuit Kickstarter now. What do you think the odds are that I’ll actually see any of my rewards? They have been posting updates, and claim to be on track, but I don’t know how much faith I should put into that…

    • 4tonmantis

      That sucks for sure.. if you want a hard suit check out Antenociti’s Komodo.. mmm.. that’s good stuff right there…

  • I can’t believe posting a comeback letter on Facebook is even considered a good business move, let alone posting one.

  • Grindar

    It’s simple enough for the Torn Armor people to post the emails showing the requests for different formats. Defiance doesn’t seem to be very specific on why those files won’t work.

    • 4tonmantis

      Grindar – The only legitimate reasons a file won’t work are:

      wrong file extension (usually a fast fix)
      mesh (the 3d model) not modeled in a way to support the above extension
      corrupt file
      file not scaled properly
      mesh not modeled properly for printing (surfaces too thin etc).

      None of these things are show-stopping.. which is why this whole thing is suspicious to me from both parties.

      • 4tonmantis

        for anyone that wants to know
        Sometimes when modeling you can end up with polygons that aren’t connected (can be a fast fix).
        Sometimes there is a problem with the normals/facing direction of polygons (this one is a coin toss as to how long it is to fix.. sometimes fast sometimes not so much).
        Most of the other errors will likely be software specific (ie in Maya you might need to delete the history and freeze transforms or whatever while in 3ds Max you might have to convert the mesh to remove the modifier stack).

        Disclaimer – All of the above situations are things I learned about for making video game models.. you have to export the models and from the research I’ve done on 3d printing there are a great deal of similarities on the prep work for the models before you can export them.

  • I have plenty of experience working with digital files and I can tell you I reject the defense given by DG. An upstanding company could easily identify the issues and get them resolved with minimal effort and expense, or at the minimum be able to tell the client ‘exactly’ what is required and provide a good faith quote for the work in a very short time.

    You can open a file in some rather inexpensive software and determine if the mesh is viable for print in a matter of seconds.

    I can tell the mesh creators are using Z-Brush, a popular software for organics, it will not output into STL format but you can run it through another program such as Rhino (also an inexpensive program) to convert the file format and check for naked edges while you are there.

    The only other concerns are how the model has been broken up to accommodate printing and undercuts. You can further break the model up in Zbrush or Rhino. If the complaint is that the model is in too many parts, just drop it into Zbrush and have it create a new skin with the parts all placed in their proper positions, this will make a new closed mesh integrating one or more components.

    If there are components that are too thin for print and reproduction, you may need to work a little more, an hour or two per file to expand the component and get it to fit the size required (thinking thin spears here)

    All of this is fast, easy and not complicated if you know even the basics of these programs. If you did not know how to use these functions or do not have the software, hand it back to the client with your concerns and charge them for the amount of time examining the files and let them decide how to proceed with a reasonable quote to complete the job.

    Bottom line, opening a file and identifying the issues to generate a quote, perhaps ten minutes per file on the outside. So if no substantial work was done… where did the money go?

  • The solution is simple:


  • Darkover

    We’ve asked Defiance Games some questions and posted their answers on our website. Our own text is in German, but the Defiance statement as well es the other original statements are still in English.

    You can finde the Q&A session at the bottom of the article:


    • 4tonmantis

      It’s interesting that in the interview they claim to be working with Torn to refund or move forward yet everything else seems to indicate otherwise..

  • “Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.”

    No sir, you took the job knowing you could not complete the work requested and made off with funds to complete a job you knew you could not complete, the onus is on you.

    Return the money and deal with your own cash flow issues and stop robbing Peter to pay Paul.

  • surprize

    I feel for anyone who has potentially lost money on this, but IMO its another wake-up call for the whole crowdfunding mini wargames genre. People talk about the reputation of Defiance Games (which seems rightly mud) but the reputation of kick starter for games and/or minis is getting lower. Vast majority of projects are lower quality and later than people hoped as far as I can see (and from the ones I’ve personally experienced).

    Some homebrew sculptor trying to get a limited run of minis out and looking for a few hundred dollars is one thing. But all these companies trying to kickstart new games? Maybe we should start thinking why they can’t get normal funding. A lot of them seem to have no experience and no business sense, and once the project ends that shows up. And its a quieter story maybe than people not getting their perks, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear a few other ‘successful’ KS have ended up financially screwing their creators as well.

    IMO we all need to start being a lot more cautious about crowd funding.

    • hithero

      Somewhat true, Torn was one of my first ventures into KS, but apart from delays, I have been ecstatic over the quality and/or value of my others that my contribution has helped to fund and get to my tabletop sooner.

    • KelRiever

      @surprize: Exactly.

      I backed exactly one kickstarter and got my product.

      Because I personally knew the guy. Now I am sure that a lot of backers didn’t, but even if you didn’t, you could find his approach to the whole project aboveboard, beyond the point of reason.

      Anyway, it isn’t like Torn didn’t do what they needed. But they, and any kickstarter backer, is at risk and should deal with these projects as exactly that…high risk. Don’t spend money you can’t afford to lose. Don’t think kickstarter is a pre-order.

      • 4tonmantis

        Torn did what they needed up until they hit a snag.. then Alyssa seemingly threw her hands up in frustration and decided she didn’t want to deal with the headache anymore. This going south may not have been her fault but it’s on her to follow through and make sure this goes down right.

  • Justacomment

    Surprize… you nailed it! Kickstarter has zero filters for quality of investment. All we see is the sales pitch and never the numbers. If I came to anyone and asked them to invest in my whatever I assume you would want to see some numbers in terms of cost, debt ratios accounting and my personal experience in the field. I keep saying over and over, people just keep kickstarting ideas that already exist and it crushes the small business model by flooding the market. The fact is this, the backers of this project got the short end. Who cares who is at fault….

    • 4tonmantis

      This is from Kickstarter’s Accountability page.
      Kickstarter Basics: Accountability Top ?

      Who is responsible for completing a project as promised?

      It's the project creator's responsibility to complete their project. Kickstarter is not involved in the development of the projects themselves.

      Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it.

      • KelRiever

        Yes, well, that just proves the point even more.

        Kickstarter basically is saying ‘We’re just a website!’

        So, legitimacy of your average person kickstarting anything should be low as hell. Unless you know something more than what you just read on some page.

        But this has been said for years now and ignored.

        • 4tonmantis

          I wonder if Paypal or Amazon or whoever the payment service is would cover the refund.. they do this when an Ebay or Amazon seller doesn’t own up..