So PP is being forced to consider something other then the “only metal” approach they originated with. Interesting - now lets see how people react to this price increase - as its more detailed in the reasoning then what GW usually does.

As a PP fanboy, this is probably not hugely surprising, but unfortunate nonetheless. I wonder if this calls for a spending spree before then? :-)

I always found PP expensive from the start. This is becoming an industry trend. When Old Glory raises their prices, I am screwed!

@Proclivity

A list of models affected is listed in this file they linked to in their announcement.
http://privateerpress.com/docs/Product_Line_MSRP_Increase.xls

Oh yes, please go plastic… I never, ever want to attach crazy Sci-Fi spears and other fiddly bits (stupid thorns and spikes, anyone?) on a metal mini EVER AGAIN.

Besides, lots of the Jacks are rather undetailed / simple - they should work just great in plastic (and seeing what GW does with the Black Reach Box, Hordesmachine could be so much nicer… I HATE assembling PPress models). And I could even live with some detail-loss, after all style-wise, I never thought the models were that beautiful to begin with, so I don’t really care if they make ‘em a bit easier to paint.

So, if someone from PPress is reading this - GO PLASTICS!

I really hope they go ahead with a switch over to plactics. Hard paintable plastic of course, not the soft toy stuff. It’ll make the Jacks easier to assemble.

For those of you that want plastic, don’t fool yourself. Plastic comes from oil, and in case you didn’t notice, oil is sky rocketing in price, and it will only go up. In comparrison to metal prices, it would be insane to make the switch to plastics right now.

The machines and molds used to make plastics are totally different from the metal ones, and cost way, way more. The molds for plastics have roughly 1/4 the life expectancy of thier metal counterparts, and are very expensive to replace.

So PP would have to make this huge, huge investment in all new machines and molds, not to mention a probable resculpt of most of the range (so PP would have to pay sculptors for the remake), train thier people on how to make and operate the new stuff, and then pass all that on to you, the consumer.

The Pre Painted Stuff- OMG no! I haven’t seen a PPM yet that came close to how well I could paint. While I see PPM as the future, they still have a long way to go. I’ll be kicking and screaming the entire way when the switch to PPM is made!

And please note their exact wording

This includes alternative metals as well as plastic components for the model kits.

“plastic components“

Tamwulf, cost is not the only reason to switch to plastics. For multi-part kits, plastic is also a superior material because it’s easy to glue together & doesn’t require pinning or filling. This could be important if you want to lower the threshold for getting into the game.

Even if we only get plastic arms for the jacks, that would still be an advance :-)
Though if you’re invsting in redoing the arms in plastic, you might as well do the rest of the kit too.

well, you do need a good drill & some putty. all you need with a plastic kit is glue. if you drop a plastic model, it’s usually ok. if you drop your heavily pinned lump of metal, changes are it’ll snap apart regardless of your careful pinwork. and then there are the thin parts you can’t easily pin… not so much a problem with the PP Jacks, but a real bitch with many of the old metal Confrontation miniatures.

gavroche-i actually hate to put together plastic kits. i always end up with the glue all over the model AND the table, not to mention lining up the parts is a nightmare. i’v never had that much problems with metal tbh. and if we’r talking plastic parts and metal parts, the plastic’s got to be either the biggest parts, and thus they might as well do it all in plastic, or the really fiddly bits. try plastic+metal hybrid with things like arms in plastic, especially with the huge fists of Jacks, and you’v got yourself a catastrophy. remeber GW’s metal+plastic from days old.they never stuck properly, and the plastic-metal joints were terribly snappy.

If you end up with glue all over the model you’re using too much of it. My experience is the opposite of yours. I can put together a jack-sized plastic mini (say a GW dreadnought or large tyranid) in no time, and it comes out well, but doing something similar with a metal one takes a lot more time. Not just because you need to drill & pin and afterwards fill the inevitably large gaps between the parts. the gluing itself is also more bother, since the glues required to put metal parts together in a way that keeps them together (ie no superglue!) require more time to bond than the plastic glue does. Nothing that can’t be solved, but I wouldn’t call metal kits user friendly.

I agree that the metal-plastic combination isn’t great, particularly if the basic body is light-weight plastic, and the arms or other add-ons metal. So they’d better go for 100% plastic :-)

@farseer: I am pretty sure nobody is expecting them to lower their prices just because they switch to metal/plastic hybrids. They are costing just about the right amount of money now - and there is always the 2nd hand market too. And as long as you can play the game with 2-3 jacks, a caster and one or two different units AND have a blast, I am going to pay nowadays price-tag and even a bit more. And I pay even more than a bit more if they do more models like Karchev the Terrible - that guy is just wargasm :D

Apart from that, I am really happy with latest plastics-offerings from GW, and gladly pay the prices for it - because they prove that plastic is very close to metal these days, if not already superior in many aspects.

@P-Ko: I am pretty sure all of your problems can be solved pretty easily - try the Army Painter superglue, that one has a very fine end making very precise glueing very easy.
The funny thing is, it’s usually the opposite for me - I end up with way too much glue (and fingers that I more than once glued together… *cough*) and putty on metals, cause that goddamn stuff won’t stick (and it’s even more hell when the weather goes nuts around me, some days when it’s colder stuff isn’t properly sticking in place at all, while on hot days it’s almost drying the moment I applied the glue on the places I want to stick… and I have yet to see a metal-glue that slightly melts the surface of the metal to almost “weld” it to the part you glue it to… plastics can do all that.

I fully agree with you on the mixed components parts, and I hope if they fully go that way, they reinvent their joints and stuff to work good with plastics.

@Zac: I agree with you that as the world turns around, things can change - and it’s very immature to say “Look, on page 5 it says “we are effing metal for life, yay!”" - they either adapt or loose customers (in the long term anyway) - and it’s good that they start thinking about problems now, usually it would be better to think about it too early rather than too late.

Aulbath-i actually had(i no longer buy any plastic figures:P) the problem with “precision” plastic glues(the needle-nozzle’d ones). and you just can’t properly position the pieces,as the glue just keeps sliding. i could avoid it with superglue,but if i’m using superglue i might as well glue metal models:D plus prepping plastics is a horror, scraping the mouldlines takes twice as long as with metal pieces. i’m sorry, i just fail to see the bright side of plastic on anything other than vehicle kits. and no matter what people say, plastics still don’t hold as good details as metal,especially the very small details.

it’be intresting to see how many customers with similiar attitude would be lost if PP did make that move.probably not all that many, but i bet some were swayed by the metal attitude of the company.

Judging from some of these comments it looks like a simple tutorial on prepping and assembling models could be useful.

I find the whole switch to plastic (in any way shape or form) amusing considering what is written in Page 5 of my copy of Warmachine:Prime. But I would also think the guys at PP fools to slit the business’s throat by not sticking with something they cant make work.

About pinning and detail - its possible to get amazing detail in plastic minis, pinned metal minis that will damage the floor more then they get damaged and glue can be controlled - it just takes some thinking and planning.
- If you think you cant get the same detail on plastic you haven’t looked at some of the tank kits put out by Dragon, Tamiya and such, the level of detail is phenomenal and far beyond even the best minis from companies like Rackham. HOWEVER, this kind of detail takes some different planning of how its molded, unmolded and laid out in general (a skill I find PP sadly lacking in - Nyss Swordsmen anyone).
- Ive pinned dreadnoughts and battlemechs, demon princes and standard troopers so they will leave divots in the floor or table top if they fall, with the worse damage being some flaked paint were a corner bent a little. Its not impossible, it just involves laying out the pins so even if the glue joint cracks the pin pushes the arm or whatever towards the body, again doable it just takes planning.
- There is an ideal amount of glue for any joint, too much and the joint will slip or at best end up very weak, too much and it wont support the weight. Usually with plastic the best kinds of glue come with little brushes, glues who literally weld the plastic components together. Metal minis go together wonderfully when you assemble them using a little bit of green stuff and superglue - the resulting joint is more akin to a good plumbing epoxy for strength. Or the truly hardcore builders can use a soldering iron to flow the metal faces together and weld the mini that way.

Just remember that because you cant do it doesnt mean its impossible, you might just not know a trick - thats what the internet can be really useful for.

@P-ko: I usually turn the models in a way so that gravity holds the piece in places - agreed, some stuff like marauders with flails are a pain to do, but they suck in plastics and would suck infinite times more in metal.

I am using special “modelkit”-glue for my plastics, that is usually used for bigger military kits, and it works good - as evernevermore said, it’s all about the right amount of glue, it takes a bit of experience but it’s easy to get the hang of it.

Regarding taking away mouldlines, again, I have a much harder time with metal-kits, I am using a very sharp scalpel for the plastics and usually, one or two times is enough to have the mouldlines gone - metals usually includes filling, scraping and all that. I’d say there is not much difference in time taken - but metals need more proper equipment (I am using a Dremel these days though, which greatly helps… but then again, you can get quite a few units for the price of a Dremel -and if you are more the gamer-type you don’t care about all that not too much)

About small details - who needs them? From usual play-distance, they are not visible AT ALL, and who wants detailed rank and file troops that could pass for characters in other systems? With all honesty (and probably becoming unpopular mighty unpopular now ;D) - I could happily live with the amount of Detail from 2nd Ed 40K or 4/5th Edition of Fantasy. I even think the plastic Gretchin and Goffs that came with the Starter 40K Box are enough to represent what they are. I don’t mind better proportions, dynamic poses and various models (and not the carbon-copy warriors of the past) - but if you have 200 Chaos Marauders up for painting, you are going to curse every unnecessary extra bit the put on the models - that nobody will appreciate on the battlefield when the lads get shot to pieces…

Anyway, back to topic - as with most things, there are as many different opinions as there are people, in the end it’s up to Privateer Press to keep their business running, and keeping their fans satisifed.

BTW, I am all yeah for one-part metal-minis. Like the classic 40K models in their almost 2Dish / flat poses. They can still make great character models that way (just don’t make me glue the tiny hands of Kreoss to his body - and give him a real weapon instead of a staff+morning star hybrid that is always slightly bent, no matter what I try) - but for units / rank and file troops I really appreciate plastics.

Ive seen Tamiya and Dragon infantry models that pack atleast as much detail as most resin Forgeworld or metal Rackham figures, so the ability to do that kind of detail exists, and the technology is essentially what GW is experimenting with now. I think the problem they have is figuring out how to use it more then what can be done with it, so I have hopes in the coming year or two the plastics coming out of GW will start to look more and more like the resin conversions and kits that have been coming out of Forgeworld.

Yes the price increases are steep but I believe you are exactly right in that they scaled for coming increases. While it is possible, I have my doubts we will see any drops in the commodities that are the raw materials for our little guys. Plastic isnt as effected by fluctuating oil prices for the simple fact that you can get a LOT of plastic out of each barrel of oil as the styrene we use (and ABS I believe for you poor PPP people :P) can use considerable amounts of reclaimed and recycled plastic. Every little bit helps on the scale that the plastic pellet makers work on.

Probably. Or just taking the time to add in any other cost increases they have had since their last increase.

Either themselves or the distributors certainly have to account for the skyrocketing shipping prices, which would be reflected in the final price customers pay.

I think this price increase doesn’t seem to bother some people simply because we’ve been seeing this exact same price increase from pretty much every manufacturer of metal miniatures.

Aulbath-ha! i know where the “problem” lies. we just want completly different things from gaming models:) You seem (from the post at least) to want what’s basically a game token, all practical and looking ok in a huge mass on tabletop, while to me it’s just as important to have aesthetically pleasing and well-detailed figurine as having a gaming pieces to move around. for the first one GW’s mass-produced plastics are good-lotsa flat spaces, big parts, etc, even if they can’t put details on them for life(i don’t consider 3 skulls per model details;) ). we’ll just have to let it be i’m afraid:D

P-Ko claims: “Aulbath-ha! i know where the “problem” lies. we just want completly different things from gaming models:) You seem (from the post at least) to want what’s basically a game token, all practical and looking ok in a huge mass on tabletop, while to me it’s just as important to have aesthetically pleasing and well-detailed figurine as having a gaming pieces to move around.”

Rubbish. I enjoy assembling & painting more than gaming, and I just happen to find that the latest generation of plastics is as good as most metals on the market. Resin is even better, I admit that, but in plastic you can do most of what you can in metal. Some things remain difficult, like furs, but models like the Jacks will look the same in plastic as they do in metal. I bet nobody notices until you pick them up & feel the difference in weigth.

A lot of this whining about the superiority of metal is just unfounded elitist old timer drivel along the “No, this is not a toy, it’s an expensive & highly detailed model used to simulate conflict, suitable for mature serious hobbyists only” line. I seriously doubt anyone started collecting Warmachine because they were a “real metal” brand while GW had betrayed hobbyists by going plastic. People buy the PP miniatures because they like the game and/or designs of the miniatures, the material doesn’t matter to most.

I believe I could tell a plastic model from a metal one every time. It’s fine if you say you prefer plastic, due to its cost or ease of conversions or even its appearance, but I really can’t believe that anyone thinks the two are indistinguishable once painted.

ElectricVoodoo-they do? i was under the impressions all of us here were having GW kits in mind when using the word “plastic”. but then, Rackham’s prepaints are very similiar in detail level to GW’s “normal” plak(which is still a lot lower than what they did in metal, mind you).
Gavroche-i was speaking only about Aulbath’s stance, or rather how i saw it after his last post, not all the people who enjoy plastic. and yes, plastic can be as good as most metals on the market,but then,”most” metals are rather plain when compared to the “artsy” models that some companies release.

“I’m impressed by the price increase on some models. Especially considering that the main explanation for the adjustment is a $4 increase per pound of raw material, and that there isn’t a single model that reaches a pound of metal. Not mentioning that raw materials is only a fraction of the MSRP.”

Any increase in the ammount Privateer charge the distributors will be quadrupled when it gets to the MRSP [since Distributor and Retailar both roughly double what they paid for it to get the price they charge.]

Not to mention Privateer wanting to go back to having a profit margin on things they produce meaning the increase in price to the distributor will be more than the raw materials increase alone. Since Privateer started producing minatures the raw materials price has gone up five fold.

Aulbath-ha! i know where the “problem” lies. we just want completly different things from gaming models:) You seem (from the post at least) to want what’s basically a game token, all practical and looking ok in a huge mass on tabletop, while to me it’s just as important to have aesthetically pleasing and well-detailed figurine as having a gaming pieces to move around. for the first one GW’s mass-produced plastics are good-lotsa flat spaces, big parts, etc, even if they can’t put details on them for life(i don’t consider 3 skulls per model details;) ). we’ll just have to let it be i’m afraid:D

Indeed, that might be the case here.
Though, I want more than a mere token - especially for characters and important/big things. Also, if tokens were enough for me, I wouldn’t go the extra mile to get old Rogue Trader models, or stripping used models and repainting them again.

And I am pretty sure you cannot deny that many of the GW-kits are aesthetically very pleasing, the latest Bloodletters for example have to be some of the artistically awesome pieces GW have ever done - great lines, and excellent feeling for form and shape - almost like a sportscar (though, a demented horrible one spewn out from the warp). Detail alone doesn’t make a good model (as many old GW sculpts show perfectly). Pose and proportions along with good “flow” in the shapes are far more important for me (especially since I am a layouter/graphics person in the realworld - living by the maxim less
is more, and well placed details win over a “I can do it, I do it”-design any day).

Besides, I don’t think that any of the latest GW offerings, once well painted, are NOT visually pleasing. In fact, the Vampire Counts and Demons are among the best looking armies GW has ever produced, in my opinion.

And then of course, there is the matter of time & effort, and finally use in the end. A Marauder (I am just painting a bunch these days, so I keep using them as examples) is 5 pts a model, in most cases they die in big numbers before they are even close to the enemy thanks to little armor and no possibility to shoot back. In other words, especially in big games they are cannon fodder or blockers, walking meatshields that can fend of small stuff and catch arrows - why would I want complex and metal-like details on those? In fact, it fits the models quite well that they don’t have much stuff going for them - after all they are slightly more than barbarians with loincloth and some axe or sword and the famed horned helmet. They don’t need more than that. So, on a bigger scale, detail is just unecessary, especially for your rank and file troops.

If we are talking small skirmish games though, with roundabout 10 figures per side, please give me as much detail as you can or go 54mm right away. BUT, please refrain from making it too complicated for me - I am on a tight time schedule due to work (at least 9hrs per day) and thus I want to get something done on the weekends and not spend at least one day assembling 2-3 figures.
Because something most people here forget that metal means in most cases a bigger time investment.

ElectricVoodooMagic said quite some true things there, make them one piece models, and maybe give the hardcore people an alternate version with bits - that way, we should all be pleased.

And after all, as harsh as it sounds - all those models ARE tokens / game counters - sometimes you gotta tell yourself that you actually play with those things - I got back into wargaming roughly 2 years ago… so far I managed 2 testgames in Warhammer, and one round of Confrontation: AoR… the rest of the time I have been assembling, painting, basing and what not… in fact, most of the stuff I bought is now not compatible anymore with the lists I used to play, and I bought at least 3 codex/armybooks that recieved an update… heck, I bought 40K 4th when it came out, and didn’t play a SINGLE game until now… and hey, 5th is up. And I can’t stand playing with unpainted models, or stuff that doesn’t score at least a 6 on CMON (which is about my paint-level). Should I get better at painting there will be even less time for actual playing, as I will spend all my free time getting my minis up to that level… yallayalla… in the end I will just paint, and once done, realize everything has changed, buy new stuff, paint again… ad infinitum.

Also, the highly detailed models are a BIG motivation killer for any newcomers, and that is something we should really start thinking about too - seeing all those perfect models in magazines and whatnot is actually not helping at all, and I know much more people that are quite demotivated to paint. There should be, much like with real model kits of tanks and planes, be some difficulty levels and easier as well as tougher kits. As a time saver for the masters, and as a helpful entrance for new people in the hobby. I mean, everyone that has grown up with Rogue Trader or HeroQuest and stayed in the hobby has learned to paint most likely, they had their “easy” oldschool models, and could evolve with the hobby. But some teenage kid getting into stuff now… oh my, even your standard plastic Space Marine is more detailed than some 2nd Ed Characters.

There are so many factors to this, it’s really hard to stay on topic… sorry :)

I see we have very different tastes (love the demons, sans the Deamonettes - gimme boobs, dammit! Hate the Tau.)

I agree with you on the wooden poses, but everyone that had to force 20+ models on a movementtray will be happy when the lads don’t have exciting, room-taking poses and just keep their extremeties to themselves. This doesn’t apply for Warmachine (or 40K for that matter) though.
Of course a full fledged single pose mini will always make a bigger impact than any “kit” - but that’s what I am saying, give me plastics for the numerous stuff and take your time on the important models. For example I could see PP doing those… uh… Storm Blades or Doom Reavers, or lots of the core Menoth units in plastics - as they would actually benefit from a few cut arms here and there to change the pose a bit (some of the D. Reavers look very awkward pose-wise IMO).

Regarding the easiness of painting models, it all depends on what army you pick really - and with the massive numbers needed (I helped a friend with an Ork army, a whooping 500 models!) they better paint up well… otherwise we would see even less painted armies (or more prepaints *shudder*). I have yet to touch my Warmachine stuff - but they seem okay, though Cryx seems a bit more complicated than the rest, imo. And to be honest, I think big, flat areas can be difficult, depending on what color your chose OR what you plan to do with it. I was actually surprised how tough it was to make some decent modern Space Marines, the old 2nd ED ones almost paint themselves compared to the new kits.

Well one flaw, sort of, is the real killer for oil price changes - transportation costs. Everything costs more when they jump as everything has to go somewhere. And remember the mold costs are the flip of the materials - with pewter molds being relatively cheap and plastic molds (especially the ones that GW is just starting to use) costing thousands.

On the other hand PPs comment abour redesigning some models to use less material is a good choice regardless - and anything that can solve problems like Khador/Bloat gap is a wise decision in my mind.

And what is this “on topic” thing you speak of? Bah :P hehe

The cost of plastic design is weird to cover. The actual price is higher initially but with smaller repeated cost due to less time spent with the designing. The software and hardware to create the designs is the highest cost there.

Shipping works both ways, volume and weight are both issues - and awkward shape or bulk will run up the costs as much as weight.

John, are you suggesting that rising oil prices will affect plastic miniatures prices because they take up more space during transport?

Im saying that what sucks about this is there is no one smoking gun once oil prices enter the picture because they affect EVERYTHING. When the cost goes up so does everything else, and we’re at historic highs. But Zac is right - volume is a huge factor.

For example, with AT-43 think of how much smaller those units would be (packaging size) if they were pewter in little blister packs. One of the weird tradeoffs with cargo planes in service now is, you can fill up the cargo hold long before you max out the available cargo weight. Think of it this way - ounces of pewter or plastic is incidental when you consider even just a shipping container that weighs hundreds of pounds or an aircraft thats measured in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Its going to take A LOT of GW blister packs to fill the cartons to fill a container. Now think of the size difference between an AT-43 Tac-Arms pack and say a Bolt Action Minis clamshell blister with 3 soldiers in it. Both get you 3 figs, and the prices are vastly different due to complexity, size, material, marketing, and probably another 10 reasons. And I know which one I would say ships easier and cheaper.