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  • The international hobby

    Editorial
    by Zac Belado
    This article appeared in an edited form in Ravage Magazine

    One of the more interesting facets of the miniature gaming hobby over the last few years is that way in which the Internet has taken what used to be a parochial and national hobby, especially in North America, and turned it into a very diverse and international pastime. There are, I believe, some interesting implications of this not only for gamers but also for miniatures and game producers.

    Ten years ago the main producer of miniatures and miniature games was, at least in my city, Games Workshop. And while this may seem like an international company selling in Canada it really wasn’t. The product may have been shipped from the UK but it was sold and distributed by a Canadian company and I bought it from a local game store often learning about it via that same store. There were no foreign language games or miniatures available and the only people playing German and French board games were those who brought them back from holidays. And they also had to know how to read German or French as the games were not available in English. The hobby itself was also more insular. The opinions about games that I got were either from local gamers or from magazines like White Dwarf, Wargames Illustrated or Avalon Hill’s The General.

    Since those heady days when I would stumble into a store and discover some new, heretofore unknown, product I now find almost all of my information about games online and I also buy more products direct from manufacturers in the UK, France and even Australia. Even my local game store orders models in that they see, not from a product circulars from their distributors or the manufacturer but from their own explorations online. The owner of my local game store doesn’t give me a puzzled frown when I ask for figures from European manufacturers as those have gone from being a niche item to being for more the norm.

    Now the experience of gamers in Europe may not be as parochial as mine was growing up in Canada but I suspect that even in places such as France and Germany the amount of product and product information available to gamers and store owners has dramatically increased in the last ten years. What has changed, aside from trade liberalization, is, of course, the wide use of the Internet to not only promote products but, and this is more critical I think, as a medium to allow people from various countries to discuss the hobby. People from all over the globe can meet online to discuss their favourite games or, with the help of search engines like Google, scour the Internet for pages related to their hobbies. In either case people are often stumbling across new products that are now, unlike a decade ago, often only a click away from being purchased.

    Where this has lead has been to an opening of markets to gaming companies that may not have existed before and also increased demands on manufacturers to produce materials for gamers in other languages. And it is not just companies like Games Workshop and Rackham that are being asked for translations of their products but also companies like Asmodee, Darkson Designs and Kraken Editions. Rackham’s AT-43 starter set had a rulebook with eight languages in it and I am sure that Asmodee is regretting their decision not to release an English rulebook.

    The biggest potential losers in this newly developing worldwide marketplace are local game stores. Especially those in North America. For while it is much easier for companies to directly appeal to gamers from other countries this also means that the local game store becomes less of a gatekeeper for exposure to new games than it was previously. Many local game stores, at least in North America, have been fighting a losing battle against online retailers that have been taking away their profit centers (such as Games Workshop products) and leaving them with little in the way of profitable avenues to expand their business. In the past this would have left these stores with an opportunity to differentiate by bringing in games such as Alkemy or Hell Dorado but if gamers can connect directly to foreign suppliers and manufacturers then this avenue quickly dries up.

    The speed of the Internet works to the disadvantage of local stores in a case like this. Often gamers are better informed about new product and can order direct before a local store can even find a distributor that carries the product. And once gamers get in the habit of ordering direct there is often little incentive for them to stop doing so. Instead of being a boon to local stores, the development of a more international, web based gaming market may actually drive more stores to close. The Internet enables people to take on for themselves the intermediary position that games stores used to hold. When I first got into the hobby I went to my local store to find out what was new and what was going to be coming out. That simply isn’t the case now and with more manufacturers being able to market directly to their customers it may mean a tougher fight for some stores to prosper.

    The new international marketplace also opens small manufactures up to the influence of fluctuating exchange rates and the influence of foreign economies in a way that they may not have been previously. The US dollar has declined precipitously in the last year making a lot of foreign products much more expensive. Most US based gamers have seen prices for UK and European products rise 30 to 40%. No manufacturer is able to absorb or respond to those costs and so many companies that may have been looking to gain sales in the US or expand their markets into the US may see that market dry up completely until such time as US consumers get used to the new reality of the diminished buying power of their dollar. These sort of economic upheavals are often unforeseen and it isn’t inconceivable to think that in the future another currency shift like the one we are currently seeing with the US dollar may cause a game company to go under as companies become more reliant on international business.

    While there is certainly an economic cost to the development of a wider client to business network that the Internet has enabled I think that these costs are worth it in the long run. The hobby is much stronger when it has a wider range of participants, both buyers and sellers, and ultimately it is the Internet that will help the hobby grow. There may be some rough patches ahead as businesses and consumers both adapt to this new way of interacting and doing business but without a doubt the world has changed and it is dragging our hobby along with it.

    51 Responses to “The international hobby”


    shadowfax says:

    Were to start? well i’m from Israel, back in the 90′ we had one BIG LGS who imported GW product, his prices were high (50% higher) but in the late 90 the internet started to be available and GW become alot more attractive, people didn’t came to buy in his store and he bankrupt so there were no GW import to Israel.
    on the other hand in 2003 after meeting few people on the net and starting the first hebrew miniature forum we started the “Israeli miniature community” showing that there is a market for miniature here but only if the price is reasonable…

    the guy opened new store and host weekly gatherings and sell miniature but he dos’nt import anymore…


    Bob says:

    I’m generally not a fan of the free market and am quite happy to support local hobby stores. Yet my take is that the internet has been an overall boon to the hobby and, if many (perhaps all) local stores go belly up as a result, that is an acceptable cost.

    What I’ve seen in my corner of Canada is that the internet has dramatically increased the ability of gamers to form and participate in local and international communities. Our area has even seen the formation of one entirely independent club (complete with its own premises) which it rents out to other clubs.

    Rather than trying to find space in a store (with the pressures that results in to play certain games or operate in certain ways), the gamer club exists simply to meet the needs of gamers. It is run very inexpensively and provides a friendly atmosphere to play in.

    Stores are no longer the main point of introduction for new gamers (although they do serve that purpose). They are also no longer the only way to find out about and get products (although again some do a good job of it). The majority are not, however, particularly efficient at doing or well designed to do either of these things.

    In effect, the internet has cut out the comparatively inefficient middle man. Yes, I’ll miss browsing through the store and going home with an impulse buy. Yet I won’t miss the mark-up, the uneven service (oh sorry, we forgot to order that and didn’t bother to tell you) and hit-and-miss selection.

    Go internet!


    Ken says:

    To follow up on Bob’s point, I have often thought to myself that the local club with meeting space model is the next iteration of local gaming. The store model just doesn’t work when I can get it cheaper, and with more information up front, online. What I do think could work, however, is a gaming club that pools the orders of its members, and orders them together to get discounts and save on shipping. This, in combination with a monthly “swap meet” or local sales event would probably work as a self-sustaining business (if only to keep the space for gaming).
    Interrestingly, I have found more local gamers using the internet than I did before the internet. All in all, progress is a good thing. The loss of outmoded forms of doing business is inevitable. As much as I enjoy browsing in the FLGS, I now find that I have already read everything online, and am just going to see if the store has it. Most of the time, I can just wait the 7-10 days for shipping from an online store.

    This is a great article Zac. Thanks!


    brotherscott says:

    I think it has become important for the local game stores to work towards creating a community for the gamers. My favorite game store committed themselves to having a game room, free of charge. The expectation is that the miniatures gaming community would make their purchases at the store to keep the game room available. There is also plenty of room for card gamers and board gamers, and the owners do a fair amount of research on up and coming games and host game nights for each of the hobbies. This has worked very well for them, as they have been in business for the last 4 years, and have recently moved to a bigger location, with more space for retail as well as a bigger gaming area. We as gamers need a place to play, and the stores need the gamers to purchase the products as well as show of the hobby, advertise that there is a following and that people enjoy their game of choice. This leads to new players and more opportunities for games to be played.
    The other thing that seems to need to happen for local game stores to stay in business and stay competitive is for the game companies and distributors to encourage shopping in local markets. I think Privateer Press has the best model for this, even though you can buy their models online at a discount, you don’t get that instant gratification of having what you bought right away, and you usually end up paying postage which offsets the discount in most cases.

    I prefer my hard earned dollars to stay in my community, it benefits my friends and neighbors. The internet has been a boon to all involved in hobbies, and international communication is great. Getting the word out has helped so many companies and gamers, but we need our local community to grow and prosper. I appreciate what the internet has done, and I use it for researching and finding common interests, but I do almost all of my shopping at my LGS.


    Aulbath says:

    I am living in north-eastern Germany (economically, we are the poorest region in all of Germany, very high unemployment-rate, and basically a hopeless place) - the funny thing is, we got one store that has dedicated it’s basement completly to all kinds of tabletop-stuff (Battletech, Rackham-Stuff, GW and a few odd ones here and there), plus 2 toy-stores that stock GW-stuff.

    None of them offer any good deals, usually stock just random blisters and boxed sets (in most cases, there is NEVER the stuff I want in the store - and whoever makes the orderlists is a moron, no chaos basic units… but a hellcannon (okay, to their defence, I bought that Hellcannon today… but I digress). Usually, it takes them as long or longer (!) to order the stuff (at least a week, ordering online I get it within 2-3 days), the prices are always on the upper end of the price range (this goes especially for non-set priced things). The people usually know NOTHING of the happenings outside their little german store… should have seen the looks on the guy I told today that Chaos Mortals gonna be a single book by the end of November, Germany didn’t even got that chaos mortals get by list yet, I think (I am using the english version anyway).

    We used to have a store that was all about GW-stuff and Pen & Paper, CCGs and all of that, but they couldn’t live on that. The store went bankrupt pretty fast (I got to know the owners later, and they are still paying off their debts to various companies to this day). The guys were great in their day (though, none of them was able to speak/read/understand english - and if you invite them to a game based on english rules or with english cards, bits whatever they refuse to play it as it’s a turn-off for them…).

    And don’t get me started on the local “playing areas” (if you can call 1 and 1/2 small IKEA table a playing area and no toilet within a 3 km range a playing area) in our little stores, nor the clientele hanging around there (annoying underage kids that are either playing Tau or Space Marines)…

    So, to sum things up - Internet equals vast ranges of things to choose from, better prices shipping included (usually you get some discount for larger orders or other such things), the weak dollar is a blessing for us euros, even with overseas shipping I can get a LOT of things cheaper than over here, the delivery times are mostly faster or just as fast as ordering from the store BUT I get the stuff delivered right to the office/appartment, so there is no hassle with picking it up somewhere, it’s all great…

    If it wasn’t for the internet, I would be not gaming again (well, mostly painting right now) - back in my 40K 2nd Edition days, it was extremely hard to get any models, much more the ones you actually wanted (and without the possibility to buy a White Dwarf (our little convenient stores didn’t stock those) to get a Mail Order number, there was literally no way to expand on the basic box set I traded with an exchange student from Denmark(!)).
    Later I managed to get a Dreadnought for my Orkz, but lacked the Mekboy/Painboy combination to actually field it (well, I proxied those, still… that sucked) and one blister with Ghazgkhull and Makari… and if I remember correctly, I managed to buy 2 or 3 bikes and half of all that stuff I actually bought on a schooltrip to England (and I wasted money on some Ultramarines expansions - I think I spent some 250pound just within the first 3 days - all the money I had saved up to that point XD - to be 15 again)!
    These days, that stuff is part of a usual small order on the net… I get several packages a month containing blisters or big and small boxed sets.

    Nowadays I can also read up what people write on the Eastern Fringe, Heresy Online, Warseer and Librarium Online just to name a few and I literally spend hours (that should go into painting) to read and soak that all up… plus browsing through CMON and randomly clicking “add to cart”-links is really time consuming - but I wouldn’t want it any other way.

    Also, another big point for the internet is that you can get the stuff in untranslated form - usually GW-stuff is full of big or small translation errors (they have gotten better… but…) and various fluff-things just don’t read as good as in english.
    Too bad you non-german speakers will never get how amazingly bad the german orkz are translated and how silly it all sounds in german (a quick example Big Bosses are translated into Gargbosses… I know Garg means ‘ooge in orkish, but it’s still sounding retarded, in my opinion). Or how do you like this, dreadnoughts are called CYBOTS in german (yeah, just read that slowly CYBOTS… look it’s a venerable CYBOT - meh!)
    Now add some crucial mistakes regarding rules, and you end up with a very different armybook/codex… it’s not as bad as 2nd Ed. now, but still, I usually buy those books twice (because having a english rulebook automatically annoys people not able to talk the english language - and conversations like the following ensue “we iz in Germany, we iz gonna use teh germain rulez, yo! But, but… the english invented this, and wrote this… this is the original work, not some faulty translated crapfest”).

    To make a long story short, all hail to the Internet! And if all those uninformed, unwilling to learn and develop/change and english-shunning clowns go out of business… I couldn’t care less, as long as I have a few like minded mates to play a few games every now and then.

    Whoa… much text…


    Zac says:

    Many people often point out the lack of good local stores as a reason for shopping online and this is obviously a necessity for people that have poor local retail support.

    Its been said here before and perhaps it bears repeating but no-one is suggesting that you need to support bad stores or should feel poorly for shopping online if the retail environment is so bad.

    Many people are not in this situation though. I know local gamers that have an embarrassment of great local stores who still shop online and then game at local stores.


    Grant says:

    I have often thought to myself that the local club with meeting space model is the next iteration of local gaming. The store model just doesn’t work when I can get it cheaper, and with more information up front, online. What I do think could work, however, is a gaming club that pools the orders of its members, and orders them together to get discounts and save on shipping.

    That was the previous (and in a lot of areas current) iteration of local gaming in the UK, the Internet opened my eyes to the fact that such clubs weren’t normal everywhere. Club discounts and even retailers visiting clubs weekly is/was pretty common.


    Brett says:

    As someone who just joined a (growing) club, and has little interest in most of what is on my FLGS shelves, it’s tough to support my FLGS. I have to make a conscious effort to go to the store, pay a higher price and wait for a special order to come in (often longer than if I’d just gone to the source). It’s a pretty hard sell.

    The cost of postage offsetting the discount is a myth perpetrated by LGSs fighting to hold onto their market share, particularly if you have 2 or 3 people combining on an order from a webstore. When it comes to an order from a manufacturer directly (say Impact! or Black Scorpion), they often offer free shipping on a reasonable sized order.

    If you make an order from one of these smaller companies, you’re also supporting the growth of the hobby by putting the funds directly into the hands of the guys and gals who make the stuff, as opposed to them getting 30-40% of the money while the distribution channel takes the rest.

    The downsides of not supporting the local shops are pretty obvious, but I think in many cases the LGS needs to shake up their business model to meet the times, as opposed to counting on the customer to spend more to get, IMO, less.


    evernevermore (John) says:

    The main thing I use the internet for saleswise is tracking down old models, as (Im sure atleast a few people are getting tired of me saying this :P) Im slowly building a Pre-Heresy Luna Wolves army using 90% Rogue Trader era minis. So of course I hunt for these minis online as some of the oldest are pushing 20+ years old. That said I try to spend my money for supplies like paint and plasticard at local stores. My biggest problem is looking for bitz since GW closed down the old bitz service. Luckily my main store anymore has a little tiny bit of bitz, but its hit or miss finding what I want.


    Rich_B says:

    Here in Nottingham we are well catered for by GW but there are no shops selling other manufacturers’ games. The last to try was Travelling Man but they really didn’t support anything well and there was nowhere to demo/play. They gradually shifted over to just selling comics and boardgames before shutting down.

    Now its a major trek to get anything other than GW, or else you order online. I prefer to see what I’m buying in person before paying so I either go out of my way to visit LGSs when I’m in other cities or go to shows. Other guys at the club order exclusively online or do a mix of both. Either way we wouldn’t have much of a hobby outside GW if it weren’t for the sheer amount of information available online nowadays. Its a rare day when there isn’t something new to gawp at from at least a couple of different companies worldwide! Internationalisation is a wonderful thing :-)


    a_thousand_hats says:

    Very good article. I think on balance my thoughts are more in line with brotherscott above than the previous posts.

    I do buy over the internet, but I’m finding myself thinking that a local gaming store in my area would get my money even if the price was higher than online. This would be because of the whole experience of going into a store and ‘geek-talking’ games with fellow hobbyists and touching the products. Having a local place to play would also be a big plus instead of playing at and disrupting my own or my gamer friends homes in the process.

    I think that in the changing marketplace we’re seeing with the web the geographical location of a physical store has a big impact on it’s value as a viable business. My area is very rural and the locals have to travel 30mins-45mins to get to bigger shopping centres. That might not sound very much but rural people can be quite opposed to traveling too far especially now that the fuel costs are going so high. A games store in my area might well be sustainable but I think the targeting of the product lines it ran would have to cover a wide range of lines beyond hobby gaming to really stand a chance of survival. Any web site it had would have to be aimed purely at it’s local market as it would not be able to compete with online discount sites on price due to overheads.

    Perhaps the advent of the web may in a strange way help some local gaming stores.

    Sure people can do their research online and find discounts but once the cost of shipping has been added in maybe it looks like it would be just as good to buy it from a local shop and know you’ve got it when you hand over the money. I think store owners that are ‘on-the-ball’ enough might be able to use the web to their advantage by using it to help them build strong local communities and encourage gamers to visit them (by running leagues, mini competitions etc.). I also think that stores need to aim at the younger end of the market that are not so grizzled with access to CCs because they are more likely to frequent the store and buy over the counter from a parents wallet.

    I’ve certainly seen stores close down in Derby and Nottingham over the last couple of years so I’m not blind to the reality of the difficulties for games and hobby stores but perhaps a new business model needs to be developed that can survive in the internet age, and so far local gaming stores have not found it relying on older, outmoded approaches to business which are no longer viable.

    I don’t have the answers just a load more questions - interesting topic this one.


    gavroche says:

    So we’re finally coming to terms with the internet & the decline of bricks & mortar local stores. Good. That took a long time :-)


    evernevermore (John) says:

    Its not so much a decline as a change - Legions is the primary game store I go to, what it has going for it is a selection of Forgeworld on the shelf (no six month wait there) some bitz supply, stocking figure lines like some Wyrd and Pig Iron products and a large assortment of gaming tables. The other store I tend to frequent is much smaller, trying to start over again, and has alot of issues with getting new product in reliably. However it has alot of second hand minis and out of print games - and thats what I use it for. I mean how often do you find a copy of the Rogue Trader White Dwarf compedium (red cover) in a GW store? Got mine for 11 bucks used.


    Zac says:

    $11?????

    That is cheap.


    evernevermore (John) says:

    Its why I support the place, that and minis like RT Imp Guard squad and some pre Slottabase GW Power armored troops - wierd little things that I wont find other places.


    redstripe (Nick) says:

    Where I live (Chicago area) I’m already starting to see the FLGS adapt. I think it will become, more and more, a gaming club more than a gaming store where the value is in the space to play and people to meet rather than the product to buy. Tournaments and Leagues are constantly running, every night, and there is a small fee to participate.


    Trent McCaffrey says:

    I think stores can remain winners instead of losers by harnessing the net to foster a local gaming community, specifically with message boards. Vancouvergamers.com has been great for this, especially the Forum section.

    Forums are easier than ever to set up. And there’s so many tech geeks involved in gaming that store owners could probably get the help of a patron to do it.


    briguy says:

    Trent: I think our local board that you link to is an excellent example of how games stores can continue to be very relevant. I know that I have decided to only buy stuff for my Hordes army from the FLGS because they offer me a tremendous place to play and meet people. That’s well worth the slight markup IMHO. :-)


    Trent McCaffrey says:

    The savings to be found online are often not worth the effort. Either the savings amount are minimal (shipping + fees add up) or the service is poor. I have a fair amount of experience in this too; my eBay rating is ~200. It’s also a huge time sink to browse online for deals. I’d rather spend the time at work or school advancing my career! I can make more money that way than saving a buck or two by shopping online.

    My approach is to make impulse buys at LGSs whenever I feel like it. I restrict my online purchases to nicely painted minis, OOP minis, or whole armies at massive discount (which are always sold by people, not stores). I have auto-searches set-up on eBay to notify me of those items as they come up.


    evernevermore (John) says:

    Places like the Warstore have great service (even for small order sales like mine tends to be). I agree about the OOP minis as being one of the best options for online sales, as I personally never hear of standard stores selling much of these.


    briguy says:

    Trent: I’ve also dabbled with buying online, and except for things that can’t be brought in by our FLGS, I’ve also found the time investment in searching out a “good deal” to be not worth it for me personally.

    Plus, it’s so much fun coming home from the store with a new thing I shouldn’t have bought. ;-)


    gavroche says:

    Buying online is not just a matter of discounts & savings, but also of choice & availability. Most local shops I know offer only a limited selection even from major product lines like WH40K, and restocks or special orders seem to take forever.


    lukestrotz says:

    With the weakening US dollar, the internet has become the place to shop for me. Even including postage cost to Australia, I can buy gaming supplies from US internet suppliers at significantly cheaper cost than going to local stores (I have 3 in range of me). And we’re not talking a few bucks. Orders that would cost me $200 AUD, can be reduced to $120 AUD or even less (including postage) by purchasing from a US internet store. Its very hard for me to justify purchasing from a brick and mortar establishment with this sort of price difference, especially when you add on top that the item i’m after is never in stock and has to be backordered anyway (which is slower than if i order it myself directly from a US store). To top it all off, I haven’t seen a product in any of my local stores in the past few years that i hadn’t heard about on the internet months before already.

    I realise I sound very anti-store but i’m actually not. I like going to store and i do sometimes purchase things whilst there, i just find it hard to convince myself that a purchase there is the right thing to do. Even involvement in the gaming community can come through the internet now (forums, chat boards, even this website) rather than at the stores and you can easily find people to play with this way (or by going to conventions - that’s where i met all of my gaming buddies). A brick and mortar store provides me with little more now than a place to see items ‘in the flesh’. This may be a sad assessment and i’m sure that the case is different for others, but for me that’s all it is now.


    djgustav says:

    I live in the Queen Charlotte Islands (if you don’t know where that is, that should tell you something — I used to work in a building complex with more people in it than the island I live on). Until recently, no store on island carried any products, and now we have one with a limited GW selection. In order to “survive”, I have to use online resources and have been attracted to discount sites. Hard to argue witha 20% discount when building an army or whatever, but it sure was “exciting” waiting until December 23rd for my kid’s battleforce of space marines to arrive. I too worry about the long term of the hobby if there are fewer stores for kids/teens to see little toy soldiers in the, uh, flesh, so to speak. Thanks to my role as a High School Principal I have been able to recreate something like clubs at a few schools here, but if it weren’t for that it would be difficult for kids to “discover” the joys of spending money on this stuff. So, if we don’t have LGSs than we really need a healthy club system to keep the hobby going. It ain’t just for us old people with credit cards!

    Anyway, every summer I have to get to real non GW only hobby stores to see/touch/buy neat stuff that I don’t know exists. The internet is necessary, but it sure is no substitute for the real thing.

    Sorry for the long post!


    Longbow says:

    I agree quite a bit with lukestrotz. I think that those who think that ordering from online discount stores is not saving much compared to buying from LGS are probably living in the US or UK. If you live elsewhere, Asia, for example, the savings is usually significant. Even considering that we are paying USD 30-50 for shipping alone, it can still be about 20-30% cheaper than buying from an LGS! Yes, I kid you not. $50 would be for an order of heavy rulebooks and stuff.

    I think that the LGS as a feature will slowly die out unless they can adapt and morph into something more like a club. Where they hold campaigns and tourneys for a small fee, and membership fees to pay for the rent/utilities of the location. As a business, stocking purely games material would be very difficult survival-wise, I think and would become increasingly so.


    chrixter says:

    The (F)LGS as the sole provider of figures, rules as well as providing (free) gaming tables is a thing of the past. The future is the gaming club where you pay to play and the shop (if any) is provided as a service.

    I see a bright future, the internet is making the hobby so much easier to access. There will be an adoption before all of the clubs and gaming societies reaches an overall mature status. I think that table top gaming will gradually start to function quite similar to other mind games (e.g. chess, backgammon and bridge). Having the club as the driving force as recruiter, teacher, and responsible for the growth of the hobby is IMHO much better than putting the sole reponsibility on a shopkeeper.


    chrixter says:

    hmm, “shopkeeper” didn’t really sound well but I hope you all get the meaning (which wasn’t meant to be negative).


    Zac says:

    The (F)LGS as the sole provider of figures, rules as well as providing (free) gaming tables is a thing of the past. The future is the gaming club where you pay to play and the shop (if any) is provided as a service.

    Not in North America I suspect. Even in the US there is rarely the density of gamers that one finds in the UK and parts of Europe.


    evernevermore (John) says:

    The internet helps alot with finding the density, but in the US I think only the major college towns have that kind of density and its not the reliable kind that the game store would want.


    Gitteau says:

    I would much rather pay for a table than feel that I was forced to buy miniatures for a game that I don’t play.


    Zac says:

    Where are you getting that from?


    evernevermore (John) says:

    I would imagine gaming guilt - some people get that when they play at a place without buying anything to support the store.

    I think its better to just flat out tell the store owner, look if you carried stuff from line A, B, or C I’d be much more interested in buying something.


    gavroche says:

    “Not in North America I suspect. Even in the US there is rarely the density of gamers that one finds in the UK and parts of Europe.”

    But if gamers can travel to a shop to play, can’t they travel to a club too?


    Gitteau says:

    Sorry, Zac, that was the beginning of a rant on the changes that modern day gaming shops need to make, but I lost steam as soon as I’d started. Basically, with the increasing divesity in gaming lines combined with the growing popularity of online shopping, the LGSs should be looking to make money off of something other than miniature sales. I’d be happy to pay for table time or league entry, and am curious if others feel similarly. This is too far off topic, perhaps.


    evernevermore (John) says:

    Well for me its 20-25 miles one way just to get to the one good gameshop I try playing at, so I can only justify once a week or so. And I know of other gamers that look at beyond 50 miles one way for the same place, and there is nothing else to chose from in their area. The gaming club/association Im involved with covers atleast 100-200 square miles easily so its a mix of games, genres and playstyles.

    Not having to travel is one of the big appeals for the internet with me.


    Zac says:

    But if gamers can travel to a shop to play, can’t they travel to a club too?

    Its a density issue as well. Where is a club going to find the space to rent?


    evernevermore (John) says:

    And even when you find a space to rent you run into parking issues - that can be a deal breaker (it crippled the hobby shop I pick up alot of my raw materials at before they changed locations)


    Trent McCaffrey says:

    This reminds me of the old Rackham discussion, which is to say…

    Proponents of online purchasing should realize that this hobby still flourishes largely because of LGS sales. If you love your hobby you’d be wise to at least keep your love of online purchasing quiet so as not to encourage it in others. You may live in areas where local purchasing isn’t feasible, that’s fine. But adding your voice to a chorus of people and suggesting they do the same will eventually lead to the closure of game stores. Some clubs will open, sure, but if stores close most people will simply head to where much of the audience of this hobby has gone…computer gaming.

    WoW is the real competition, not net-sales vs LGS-sales. Don’t bite the hand that feeds your hobby.


    Gitteau says:

    I refuse to see the LGS as a sort of charity that we should give to so as to perpetuate tabletop gaming.


    Aulbath says:

    Hmm… why don’t you just meet people at your or their homes for playing? It works for Pen & Paper, it should work for tabletops too. For example, I am renting a 69m² flat alone, plenty of room for 2-5 games at once (and if my flatmate is in, well we can still cram in 2 games - or 3 if someone wants to play in the corridor), I provide the space, my mates provide the booze - fun for everyone :D
    And every once in a while we switch to another mates flat - so it’s a nice rotation going on (though we prefer to stay with out terrain-guy for obvious reasons ;D)

    Besides, there are probably community centres or other places that might offer rooms for good prices. Public schools might rent rooms after school as well.

    Don’t get me wrong, nothing beats a dedicated “battle bunker” - but playing space shouldn’t be that much of a problem - unless you want to have a 20+ people gaming club going in your Tokyo-size apartment.

    Cellars or basements make great places to game as well! Same goes for attics and garages.
    And in most cases, there is no extra cost since you, or your parents rent or bought the place ;D

    @Trent: I used to play WoW for a year, got bored - turned to wargaming again… if they are real gamers at heart, they will return to dice, booze and minifigs ;)


    Zac says:

    I refuse to see the LGS as a sort of charity that we should give to so as to perpetuate tabletop gaming.

    Since no-one is saying that I really don’t see the need for you to take a stand against it.

    For example, I am renting a 69m² flat alone, plenty of room for 2-5 games at once (and if my flatmate is in, well we can still cram in 2 games - or 3 if someone wants to play in the corridor), I provide the space, my mates provide the booze - fun for everyone :D

    Easy to do when you only have roommates and not a wife, two kids and a dog :-)

    My gaming table used to be set up in my living room 24/7 but then I got married, moved and had kids and all of them would object highly to a 4′ x 8′ gaming table in the living room.


    evernevermore (John) says:

    And on the other hand my cats and dog would be thrilled with the idea of a gaming table in the living room - more of those funny little things to attack when “daddy” isnt paying enough attention. I swear my dog is more destructive then your average small child :P

    Even if I could keep the pets out of the room I’ve taken over as my game room there is still the whole issue of making sure my fiancee is ok with it, cleaning the place before and especially afterwards, and just flat out making space (books take up alot of room and I have yet to find a ready made shelving unit that is setup for paperbacks). I’m not even (all the way) married or having kids and my house is out of the picture - especially with allergies.


    Gitteau says:

    Since no-one is saying that I really don’t see the need for you to take a stand against it.

    What is Trent’s last post saying, then? He says we’re to do what we can to support the LGS or the hobby will collapse. If a shop is failing to market itself properly and has failed to make me feel some sort of personal allegiance to it, why should I give away my money unless it’s out of some sort of charitable notion?


    Aulbath says:

    Well, I presume you are not 24/7 gaming with the guys - some 3-5 hrs once a week should be possible, even with a girlfriend/wife/significant other. After all, this is your hobby, dang it… one evening every once in a while shouldn’t be too much to ask for?
    And, well, you can always tell your mates to behave - as it’s not the pub but your home.
    I guess nobody likes cleaning and preparing much, but what the hell, if the place is a mess - it’s actually good you have a reason to do something about it (now, why isn’t GW stating this on their homepage “Warhammer makes your kids clean their rooms!”).

    As for the kids, depending on their age, events like that in your home could well be the starting point to a successful gamer-career outside the World of WarCraft ;D

    Honestly, it might just be worth a try for you guys - and, speaking from my own experience - all the cons are easiley outweighed by the pros, and most importantly the fun you can have within the comfort of your house/room/flat/box under the bridge.


    Zac says:

    What is Trent’s last post saying, then?

    Did he use the word “charity”?

    No, he did not. Please don’t start straw man debates.

    Honestly, it might just be worth a try for you guys

    I think you can safely assume that people have looked at this as an option.


    evernevermore (John) says:

    QUOTE
    Well, I presume you are not 24/7 gaming with the guys - some 3-5 hrs once a week should be possible, even with a girlfriend/wife/significant other. After all, this is your hobby, dang it… one evening every once in a while shouldn’t be too much to ask for?
    LOL tell that to my buddies wife, but thats a whole nother discussion.

    I simply run into the problem of space, or lack thereof


    Aulbath says:

    @Zac: I guessed so, but I wanted to mention it anyways as everyone kept talking ’bout renting rooms and all that.

    @evernevermore: Poor chap, I honestly couldn’t live with someone that dislikes/hates some stuff I do, and thinks of the time invested as wasted… had that before, never will/want to have that again. But, yeah… a whole nother discussion ;D


    Trent McCaffrey says:

    Gitteau said:
    I refuse to see the LGS as a sort of charity that we should give to so as to perpetuate tabletop gaming.

    That’s cool. You don’t have to support your LGS (especially if you’re not playing there). But for-the-love-of-the-hobby, don’t try to convince the “WE” to do the same, as it will only adversely affect your hobby. Your efforts would probably be better spent talking directly with your LGS about what could be done to keep you as a customer…again, for the betterment of your hobby.

    Aulbath said:
    I used to play WoW for a year, got bored - turned to wargaming again.

    Your expception is probably not the rule! :)


    evernevermore (John) says:

    Aulbath - it has more to do with bad experiences with some unwashed Warhammer players and the fact that she’s doing her Phd and seems to subconsciously want him as stressed as she is. Some damn dirty gamers have embittered her towards GW, luckily he’s a PP fanboy so his Tau now reside at my place, the poor little plastic refugees.

    Trent - I’ve seen enough game stores that have more in common with the Comic Book guy from the Simpsons then the good Friendly Local Gaming stores. And they DO NOT deserve anyone gamers money if they behave that way.


    Zac says:

    And they DO NOT deserve anyone gamers money if they behave that way.

    And no-one says that they do. Bad retail doesn’t need to be supported.

    I don’t know why this point keeps getting raised in these debates.


    Trent McCaffrey says:

    John, I’ve seen it too. But if it was my only option I’d be talking with the management to see if they’re willing to make some policy changes. The problem is often the conduct of some patrons rather than the owners.

    Dialogue is a better opening option than boycott. And even more so, when discussing these options online, it’s all too easy to skip to chapter 11 and tell the world, “LGSs don’t deserve my money! I’m shopping online! (…and by implication you should too)”


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