I’m not a Confrontation player - I like AT-43 and have been running that to great success. I, did, however, purchase many of the metal minis because I liked the sculpting.

I can understand why long-time players of Confrontation would be upset, but I’ve been a Games Workshop player for 20 years now, so I’m kinda used to this sort of thing happening.

At the end of the day, I understand why Rackham has done what they have done - for a lot of people, it does suck - but I think it’s a smart business move. At the end of the day, that’s where the bottom line is.

For the Editor to come out and say comparisons of old product VS new is not proper I see as a detriment to the site

Its a good thing that this isn’t what I am saying then :-)

I am not sure how you are getting this impression but it is absolutely not the case.

The issue is not what people are talking about but the manner in which that discussion is being played out.

Locking and or deleting things based on percieved slights to some one or even just because your views on a subject are completely different isn’t the answer either.

And this is also not the case. I’m not locking topics because I am disagreeing with the viewpoints of the posters. If that was the case I would be locking topics every day since almost every topic contains posts that have opinions that I don’t agree with.

I’m all for the open discussion of topics but the case in this instance is not that there are opinions that I agree or dsiagree with but that the debate borders on devolving into a flamewar.

This is what I am attempting to avoid.

Again, the issue is the emotional and heated nature of the debate and not the opinions being proffered by any of the posters on the site.

Posts have been deleted simply because they were adversarial (and done so after I asked for people to try to avoid being confrontational and adversarial). Not because I didn’t agree with them.

I mainly just check the site for news and views outside what the companies them self feed on their own sites. Whether its pleasant or not for some, I like to know what former and current consumers of a product think. I doubt I am in a minority on this.

For the Editor to come out and say comparisons of old product VS new is not proper I see as a detriment to the site. I like to know what people think about a companies new products as they stack up to anything new they put out. A company’s history has a great deal of bearing on alot of peoples purchasing habits.

Locking and or deleting things based on percieved slights to some one or even just because your views on a subject are completely different isn’t the answer either. To abruptly change the unbiased feeling that brought me and others here based on the site administrations personal feelings and likes will do nothing but make this site like all the others that I no longer bother with.

I’m not saying that deleting obvious derogatory coments towards other comentors is bad but that it must be used sparingly and only when absolutely needed.

Lastly this is the internet. Anyone who takes anything said against them online to seriously really has a problem. People are far to sensitive and if simple things like go on here offend you what can I say but your being offended offends me. Who wins there?

Thank you all for all comments over the time I have viewed this site be they positive or negative, past and future.

One thing I have done to avoid much disappointment with fantasy games at least, is stick to a single race (Dwarfs). I like them stylistically, so I dont mind collecting a lot of them. Almost every fantasy game includes Dwarfs of one sort or another, so if a game goes under, I can always use the minis elsewhere. Even if there arent Dwarfs in a particular system, I can always use them as a “counts as” army. I have even toyed with the idea of using my Dwarfs a stand-ins for a Simian Empire army in Hundred Kingdoms. They are tough, slow, well-organized, and have a devastating war machine. Ok, so my Dwarfs arent giant Roman gorillas…but my friends dont care. ^_^

I know it is barely a step up, but perhaps even Mid-nor players can use their models in a Chaos Dwarf army, or a regular Dwarf list elsewhere. Most Confrontation armies can cross over to other games, and you will have the best looking force to boot (with your old metal minis). It is one suggestion to help the transition and avoid future pains.

I pulled some posts from here yesterday as one person was being adversarial. I also deleted the replies to his posts, not because they were out of line but because it made no sense to leave them without the original posts they replied to

As someone who has been drawn into the odd online rant-ette or two (*crosses fingers*) I have learned the hard way over the years not to just splurge, out of deference to those that feel differently to me. I have learned a few painful lessons around the fact that what one intends to say, on the internet and in life, so often isn’t what others actually read!

Also, again out of deference to the readers, it does get VERY boring just reading the same old complaints time after time. Sure there is real geek-pain felt when a company spoils something you love out of mere commercial necessity or indifference. And it is necessary to vent in order to release that pain. But do bear in mind that the vent, while cathartic, may actually be pretty boring and irritating to others on the forum. And they are ALLOWED to be wrong! It is indeed a free world!

While I am not overly emotionally involved with R and its “issues”, I was (and still am) seriously invested in GW’s Lord of the Rings, and got really bent out of shape over many different artistic and commercial decisions taken over the years, and it took its toll on my enjoyment of wargaming. And to be frank, it wasn’t worth it. Given my time over again I really wouldn’t have allowed myself to get so drawn in (which at the time gave me a real buzz) and so in foregoing some of the postive buzz, I would have saved myself a lot of the pain of withdrawal when things went bad for me.

So I think, if I can ramble to a close, the lesson I learned is to try and always keep some detachment from any game or hobby you are involved in. That way if it changes radically and a “rug” is pulled out from under your feet, you are less likely to get hurt by it. It’s worth bearing in mind that “nothing’s forever” and especially not tabletop games. Just enjoy them for what they are and make sure that there is plenty of other things positive going on in your life to fall back on when the inevitable change happens!

And a final post script for those irritated by the ranting… while personal attacks are never to be condoned, and I applaud Zac for stamping on them when they occur, there is always the option of skipping over a “negative” post. There’s no law of the internet that says you HAVE to respond to a post you disagree with! :)

[url]http://xkcd.com/386/[/url]

A good question is how many like myself R has lost with this change.

With a wealth of forum data at your fingertips, you can actually do some awfully empirical stuff. Like compare user name to joined date, to post count, to date last posted. Or even more sophisticated analysis. Pretty exciting stuff! And, other minis companies can learn from this too. Heck, even Rackham can learn from it, although their PR arm won’t get a second crack at it.

You have to have a PRETTY AWESOME game to just spring it on people and hope for converts!! And the most exciting part of it is that the aftermath is STILL playing out! We’ve got all sorts of cool events to be pundits at, like upcoming GenCon, etc. Who will have the booth, will it be crowded, what will be on sale, for show, etc.? Awesome!

If company A makes a good product, everyone say *AYE*

If company A makes a good product then suddenly does bad customer service what do we do? If A is a small company, can we warn all our friends that A is doing bad service or not filling orders or perhaps is belly-up? Or if someone orders A’s rulebook and it has shoddy binding, we can warn others? Or someone starts using highly leaded miniatures from the previous white metal?

If then it is a big company and many people buy their stuff, is there a different rubric applied so that we can keep the larger hordes of people from clogging the airwaves with negative vibes?

Or is there a limit we need to respect? And if so, can the level of tolerance be defined?

I think it’s perfectly okay to tell people what you think. Every American believes that it is his or her right to tell everyone else how to do things. Armchair midfielders exist in England? Maybe, but we got da ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACKS!

Okay… just joking. But if things get very personal like “stupidhead, etc etc”, fine then. But else, I think censorship of small things can grow to bigger things. And that’s my unqualified 2 yen.

And for my final 10 yen, I hope Rackham all the best. I hope they can sort themselves out because they look like they are having serious growing pains now. That’s fine. I am personally holding out on buying the PPPs because their quality mostly (some are okay) are not up to snuff. Some of the old metals were bad too.

If they can make nicer PPPs, I will give it a go. Otherwise, I will buy their metals and play with whatever game I have enough minis for. And watch for improvements and developments in the meantime.

I think the worst would be for them to suffer financially. AT-43 seems to be doing better… heck, those minis look better!

Perhaps you all didn’t notice me complaining about having to lock two previous threads? Making we lock a third is going to really defeat the purpose of me trying to calm this situation down.

So can we please tone it down and lose the adversarial nature to the last few posts?”

…hmmm… I thought this board was turning into a good catharsis.

I saw some great comments from people, both pro and con. No one seemed to become adversarial rather a good healthy debate. I liked the comments about how the moderator can stay out and keep his position neutral. Good advice to me I think (I mod something else).

But I wish Zac would just ban talk of Rackham altogether. It seems to me in the above comment, a nerve has been hit. Strong debate is one thing, derogatory another.

Let’s all sing together… cumbayaaaahhh….

Hey, communism isn’t too bad…

Okay… I’m banned now… (smile)

C3 took away a good part of what made the game interesting from a tactics point of view, as well as some of the unique qualities of the characters. It was still interesting, but not as colorful in game-play as C2.

C:AoR has watered down the rules to the point that my friends and I no longer care to play Confrontation. We might pick it up again someday, but we’ll be using one of the older rules sets. Unfortunately, we’ll have to devise C2/C3 stats and abilities amongst ourselves should any new figures be released that strike our fancy. We have no need of prepainted figs for Confrontation (or Rag’narok, which we like even more than Cf), but might pick some up to bolster our basic troop units. Rackham hasn’t completely lost us as customers, but new product purchases will be few to none compared to what they used to be (generally speaking, multiples of each new blister and box set for each of us).

Am I happy about Rackham’s current direction? Not particularly, but it’s not my call. It’s also not something I’m going to lose any sleep over, nor repeatedly bash the company for not doing what I want them to do.

We’re trying to defuse the situation and not escalate it so can we keep the commentary a little less subjective and less adversarial.

Perhaps you all didn’t notice me complaining about having to lock two previous threads? Making we lock a third is going to really defeat the purpose of me trying to calm this situation down.

So can we please tone it down and lose the adversarial nature to the last few posts?

I have deleted several comments in this post (and their responses). Lets keep the conversation polite please.

Thanks

I am not a C3 player, and after I have considered the game, the new one is not for me either (mostly a financial consideration since I am broke).

There are some other facets that has not been explicitly discussed:

Cultural Difference- This “keep your customer informed of your plans” is very much a Anglo-Saxon business trait, that Brits and Americans take for granted is not necessarily shared in other cultures. In general business in France are less “customer friendly” judging by US standard (and this is not something I made up, check out last week’s NYT Travel section here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/weekinreview/23sciolino.html?ref=travel).
I think Rackham TRIED to be good and keep the customers informed, but this isn’t in their DNA and came across (at least to EN speaking audience) botched and billed as “uncaring”.